I recently posted some of my criticisms of the Genesys combat system to a forum for Genesys-related material, and received a surprising amount of resistance to the idea of making any changes to the rules. In amongst the resistance there were a large number of people telling me “you shouldn’t be doing that much combat anyway” and “if you like combat so much, just play D&D”. There was a strong theme of “people who play Genesys don’t like combat-heavy gaming” with the general assumption that combat-heavy gaming is somehow bad.
I have been GMing and playing RPGs for just over 30 years, and over that time I have repeatedly run into this idea that combat-heavy gaming is wrong, in various manifestations. You see adverts from gaming groups looking for members that say “we don’t focus on combat”, you meet GMs who tell you “yeah my campaigns tend to avoid combat”, and the ever-disdainful “yeah it’s not like D&D, it’s not all about combat.” Here is an example from the forum where I posted my suggested rules changes:
This entire post seems to me to be a misunderstanding of what Gensys is. If you want combat play 5e. If you want and narrative game that’s interactive between players and GM, then you’re on the right page.
This really pisses me off for a lot of reasons, and reflecting on it over the past week has triggered me to write this rant. To me, this “We don’t run games that are combat heavy” routine is like the idea that “you’re not like other girls“. Men pull this sometimes, and what they mean is they don’t respect basic aspects of modern femininity, which at the same time they really want their girl to have. It’s a shitty, self-deluding and mean-spirited approach, and most sensible girls list it as one of their basic red flags for exiting from a date. In the case of RPG talk, this “my games aren’t combat heavy” routine is bullshit for several reasons:
- Every game group I’ve ever joined that has advertised itself this way has been just as combat-heavy as the ones that don’t
- Combat is fun, and most people enjoy it, so when you set yourself apart from it like this you’re saying you’re a killjoy with a weird approach to gaming and probably a boring GM
- It’s almost always based on separating yourself from D&D, just as “you’re not like other girls” is meant to separate the girl you’re talking to from a lumpen mass of boring, shallow selfie-taking girls who actually only exist as a stereotype in the speaker’s mind
In fact D&D isn’t any more combat-focused than any other system, and when people compare themselves with it they’re setting up a false equivalency which shows they either know nothing about the world of RPGs, or are an arsehole with too much brand loyalty to some other system. I want to attack each of these issues in turn.
Most groups have the same levels of combat
I’ve GMd and played in many groups in many systems over many years in several countries, in multiple cities, in two languages, and in my experience most gaming groups have about the same amount of combat. There is almost no such thing as a gaming group that doesn’t do much fighting. Regardless of the system and the setting, most campaigns involve a fair amount of good quality savagery. There will be sessions of investigation and negotiation, and sessions of shopping and planning, but these will inevitably lead up to combat or flow from combat, and players are always happy when the shit hits the fan and the dice come out.
I think there is a secondary reason for this besides that combat is fun, which is that the players often are working on limited information and don’t know the full story of the situations they’re dealing with, or what they need to do, and often they misunderstand or have forgotten key bits of information (which they invariably didn’t write down). But they can sail through these complexities because they know ultimately they can beat someone up and force the information out of them (or steal it) and if their primary pathway through the story gets lost the GM will save them by having their adversaries play their hand – usually with a weapon in it. Combat is very helpful for resolving story impasses, and GMs and players alike use it for that purpose.
It should also be noted that even though combat makes up a large chunk of time in a typical session, it isn’t actually that much of the story. Consider session 22 of my Genesys campaign, for example: The PCs visited a bar to get a job, sailed overnight on a ship where they did some planning and investigatory magic, walked for a day along a beach, checking carefully for signs of lurking dangers or evidence of wrecking, investigated a shipwreck by examining several bodies and finding and opening a chest, scouted a cliff face to find two men of dubious purpose, scouted a cave entrance looking for signs of fake signal lights, triggered a trap, and had a fight with some selkies. In actual game time the fight probably took as long as two or three of the other activities in the session, but it was only a tiny part of the total story. Combat takes up an out-sized part of the action and people’s perception of the balance of things in a game because rules are clunky and fights take a long time to resolve, not because they’re necessarily a large part of the activities of a typical adventure.
So frankly, I don’t believe people when they say they’re not really into combat in their games, because every time someone says that the empirical evidence shows the lie. Don’t get judgy with me about how you’re not that into it, and don’t pretend your level of combat in your games is special. It’s not, trust me. You’re not special.
Combat is fun
This is why every rule system has a section on fighting, and why popular gaming podcasts are called things like “I hit it with my axe” and not “I talk calmly with it to resolve the conflict.” There are several reasons for this, and they’re all perfectly good reasons:
- It’s the time your PC faces the most risk and it’s also the time when things are least like the world you’re actually in
- Most of the settings we play in are designed for conflict, because we want worlds where there are big evil and dangerous threats, and we especially like magic and demons and monsters, which inevitably bring violence
- We spend most of our lives compromising with shitty people who have more power than us and negotiating and talking our way out of trouble, often with little success, and being able to smash your way out of problems – especially if the person you’re smashing is a bully or evil – is real escapism, and we don’t play these games to replicate the shitty interactions we have with shitty people in our shitty real world
If players didn’t enjoy fighting, and if people who wanted low-combat games were common, game designers would give combat the same amount of attention they currently give to social encounters or stronghold building: almost none. The reason it is a large part of gaming is that people enjoy it, which might also be the reason D&D 5e is so popular … except that D&D 5e isn’t an especially combat-heavy system.
D&D is not combat heavy
This idea that D&D is a combat-focused game is very old and very shitty. It wasn’t true 30 years ago and it’s not true now. First let’s consider some canonical examples of this idea, which I hear all the time. Consider for example this 9 year old post on stack overflow asking how to reduce combat in a D&D game, where respondents say things like this:
Well, for starters, I’d say don’t use D&D. It is a game tailored towards violent conflicts, which is exactly what you’re avoiding, it seems. Mind you, I said “violent conflicts”. No story, thus no game, can exist without any conflict whatsoever. I’m not also saying it’s completely undoable with D&D, just mainly… a waste of its design and practical goals.
I don’t know how to put this finely, so I’ll just say it: this is utter bullshit. D&D was never designed entirely towards violent conflicts, and this idea that it was is based on an unpleasant retrofitting of the nature of these games. Very early D&D lacked a skill system, so compared to games like Traveller and Warhammer that were around at the same time it looks like it was intended to be entirely combat focused, but it was never seen this way at the time. It was understood that the players and GM would resolve all non-combat stuff between themselves using negotiation and discussion and role-playing, and the rules were there to make fighting coherent – not that the game was only about fighting. You can see this in many of the classic early modules, which set out huge amounts of non-combat role playing in the social context of the game, without any particular mechanism for resolving those parts of the adventure. Later versions of the game introduced skills because of the popularity of skill systems and the recognition that without structured rules for non-combat encounters it became too much of a GM’s kimagure about how these matters would be resolved.
It should also be noted that compared to some other fantasy RPGs like Tunnels and Trolls, D&D led the way in finding ways to introduce non-combat themes. D&D invented the thief, a character class originally intended to be weak in combat but very useful outside of it, and also is responsible for the development (or at least popularization) of the much-maligned bard class, which is the Platonic ideal of non-combat role-playing. And what do we find in the 20 years since its inception? The bard is the routinely most-hated character class. Why would that be I wonder?
This idea about D&D being combat heavy is also empirically verifiably not true. Let us compare systems I have on hand! The D&D 5e rulebook has 200 pages of rules, excluding spells, of which 10 are devoted to combat, 2 are devoted to social interaction, 6 to skills, and 5 to weapons and armour. Among the spells 6/11 Bard cantrips are non-combat, 10/18 2nd level Druid spells are non-combat, and 7/15 7th level wizard spells are non-combat. (This is treating healing and restoration as combat-focused). So perhaps 10% of the rules and 50% of the spells are for combat. Compare with Genesys, our supposedly narrative/non-combat game, where in 136 pages of basic rules 7 are devoted to social encounters, 23 to combat and 3 to weapons and armour. Almost all of the spell section is devoted to combat spells, and no real guidance offered for non-combat spells, which are entirely up to the GM and players to figure out. Warhammer 2 has 140 pages of rules, of which 16 are devoted to combat, 6 to weapons and armour, and two of the PCs’ basic attributes are combat-only! (Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill). In the spells, 5/8 of the lesser magic spells are non-combatant. The game Limnal, a modern fantasy based around things like Rivers of London and the Dresden Files, has 88 pages of rules among which 8 pages are for combat. So even definitively combat-light games like Limnal that are set in the modern mundane world where you can’t just shoot people still reserve nearly 10% of their rules for combat. D&D is far from special in this regard!
Not only do people enjoy combat, D&D isn’t especially combat heavy and it never was. I bet this pernicious lie was started by the Vampire the Masquerade poseurs, who needed an excuse for the fact that their much-loved and very popular game had shit combat rules and really boring magic. But games like Vampire, which explicitly tried to frame themselves as more social, had another problem that D&D and other “combat-heavy” games had less of: They were a target-rich environment for bullies and abusers.
Combat-free gaming and bullying GMs
I played a year-long World of Darkness game, followed up by a very short stint in the standard Vampire world, and I have never experienced so much bullying and abuse by a GM in my life. The setting is designed to make your GM a bully, and the lack of structured rules and the insane power differentials that make combat impossible also mean that almost everything becomes a case of begging your GM for a break. This old Reddit thread in response to someone asking whether to take up VTM is a good example of its kind, with comments like this:
VtM, in my opinion, tends to be bogged down by the lore, politics, and hierarchy of the system. Instead of doing cool vampire things, you mostly skulk around talking to other vampires who are all more powerful than you and will most likely execute you if you try to do anything interesting. Most of the time even having a character sheet was pointless because it seemed like using your powers in any way would get you on the Most Wanted list.
This was my experience exactly: having a character sheet was pointless because any conflict you entered (whether combat or social) was against people so powerful that your skills didn’t matter, or against mundane people who you could always beat. It was completely narrative, effectively, and the problem with narrative styles like this is that you end up entirely at the mercy of the GM, with no clear cues as to how to deal with his goals and desires, and no frame of reference to determine whether he is being unreasonable. In VTM, if a GM puts you into conflict with some god-awful ancient elder vampire, you won’t necessarily know what you’re up against and you won’t be able to resolve this situation unless you know what the GM wants to get out of the encounter; but you also won’t have any framework within which to argue your GM is being unreasonable, since the whole stupid game is designed this way. In contrast if your D&D GM throws your first level group against a lich you know there and then that you can just walk away because the GM is an arsehole and a bully.
VTM is basically high school cliques turned into an RPG, and it’s just as much fun: none. It’s also ripe ground for bullies precisely because systems without clear rules or guidelines for conflict, and without the option for you to hack and stab your way out of trouble, put too much power and privilege in the hands of the GM. It’s no surprise to me then that in amongst the last two years’ metoo reckoning within the gaming industry, a lot of the people being exposed turn out to have worked on VTM. It’s a game designed by bullies for bullies.
When you put a lot of power in the hands of one person, you need a strong and robust institutional structure to control that power. In the case of role-playing the institutional structure is the rules, and well designed rules not only provide the players with a good structure for how to handle any situation, but also provide a clear set of boundaries for the GM, so that everyone can tell when he or she is stepping out of line. This is another reason they’re combat heavy: because combat is naturally a time when everything is structured, and when everything is structured then everything is fair, and players want the game to be fair. There are a couple of clear red flags pointing to a bullying GM, and the clearest one is that he or she simply doesn’t bother to follow rules. If (as in my World of Darkness campaign), your GM doesn’t really care about character sheets and character development, ignores rules, arbitrarily forces you to change your PC, puts you into situations where using your powers or engaging in combat will inevitably be lethal, or repeatedly forces you to back down from your own plans by revealing highly powerful enemies, then you need to run. And chances are, if your GM prides themselves on not doing combat, they’re also doing one or all of those things.
Why any of this matters
I think a lot of people enter role-playing out of a genuine and deep interest in the idea, because role-playing is awesome, and I think a lot of them leave very quickly because of their experience of hard-core gaming nerds, who can be really unpleasant. If you want to grow the hobby it’s really important to recognize why people come to the game, what they really want from it, and what behavior and principles will destroy their fun and our hobby. It’s a cliche in this hobby that there’s no right way to do it, and that you should just have fun, but it’s also a truism that you never see people who enjoy combat-heavy games sneering at people who don’t, and you never hear people who enjoy D&D griping about how other games don’t have enough fighting. This sneering all goes one way, and I think there’s a reason for that: a small minority of people in our hobby want to set themselves up as special and rarified masters of the game, and in order to do that they need to disparage one of its most central, universal elements in favour of much vaguer, much less structured parts of the experience which people enjoy less and which make the game much more dependent on successfully negotiating real-world social interactions which are often, sadly, toxic. Don’t fall for it! And don’t become part of some weird system of cliques in which people who play a certain way are better than people who don’t. We’re not in high school anymore, and we don’t have to pretend to be cool. So kill as many orcs as you want, and steal their treasure from their still-warm bodies with joy in your heart and no guilt in your soul!
May 9, 2021 at 8:38 pm
I never played Vampire:The Masquerade (or any World of Darkness games), and it’s a long time since I’ve played any RPGs, and I’m sure my experience in total is much less than yours, so, in sum, I’ve got no basis for disputing your assessment of the game and I’m not trying to do so.
But I gather that there are people who do play the game, so it seems to me that there must be people who get something out of it.
I mention this not because it disproves your evaluation, but because if your evaluation is correct, that it’s not fun, that makes ‘What are people getting out it?’ into an interesting question, don’t you think? Obviously I have no idea how to answer it.
I remember reading something somebody posted somewhere online about how he preferred RPGs that gave the players–I think he was using the term ‘character-players’ to distinguish them from the GM, regarded as also a player, in the sense of a participant in the game–that gave the character-players real choices about what to do, not just how to do it. I don’t think this would have excluded fighting and looting, but I imagine it could (for example) have meant the players–the character-players–having a real choice about whom to fight and whom to loot, not just about how to do it. He was a GM himself, so I assume he was able to design his own adventures that way. I expect they would be harder to design that way, but I suppose it is possible.
The reason I mention this is that in a typical combat the PCs will make a lot of decisions, but all those decisions will be about how to achieve their goal (winning the combat), not about what the goal is. If the PCs are going to have real choices to make about what their goals are, not just how to achieve them, those decisions are nearly always if not always going to happen outside combat (which is, as I said, still entirely compatible with the normal amount of combat, or at least so I imagine).
May 9, 2021 at 9:10 pm
There’s a lot of good things about the World of Darkness universe, there to enjoy, but you have to throw away almost all of the setting-specific social information to make it viable. I imagine a lot of people have done that and managed to have fun. But in this kind of discussion (about whether a game is combat-heavy or narrative, which part of the rules are broken, what the rules naturally encourage and discourage, etc) you have to take the game as it is written, and as it is written VTM and WoD has a lot of pressure points to make the GM a dick. I know that people are able to enjoy the game despite that, and actually I did really enjoy the WoD campaign I was in. But if I had had a GM who was less of a bully, and a system that was more structured around combat and skill resolution in a world that wasn’t designed as a playground for bullies, it would have been much better. Also worth noting, if the system is a bit shit then the GM and players are more likely to improvise the rules, and if it’s so bad that people regularly have to improvise in unexpected ways, it encourages gaming by arbitrary decisions by the GM. This is part of the reason that early D&D moved towards having skill checks for social and investigative activity – because free-forming it as we used to in the original system basically means trying to guess “what is the GM thinking”.
Regarding the thing about character-players being able to avoid a fight, this is obviously how GMs should plan adventures, and we do, but there are three problems with the idea as put forward by the GM you report on: 1) if the character-players consistently avoid the things the GM is putting down for them, then the npc-player (the GM) isn’t getting to do what they want to do, and this tension is fundamentally unavoidable in this framework, 2) most of the time the GM lays out things that he/she thinks the players want to do, and so typically they’re not interested in avoiding them (which is part of the reason most games are combat-heavy: because that’s what the players want) and 3) If you did actually run a campaign where the character-players can do whatever they want outside of what the GM plans, it’s a lot of work. This is sandbox-gaming and ironically is best done in a system with lots of structure, easy systems for handling combat, and a simple adversarial framework, because when GMs make shit up on the fly, quite often it’s much easier and quicker for them to sort out combat-heavy scenarios than not. Also usually this style of play works much better if the system has a lot of pre-written adventure material in a consistent setting that is easily modifiable to particular circumstances and, again, D&D is strong for this. If your players say “fuck it, we’re getting on a boat and doing piracy”, you can bet there’s a million modules already written for that in D&D, easily accessible, and a shit-ton of adversaries and gear and support material already written, whereas there’s diddly-squat of that for the Fate system.
May 10, 2021 at 10:41 am
“You’re not special.” Says the statistician with one eye on a normal distribution curve. 🙂
– Because while a group that likes 0% fighting or 100% fighting may exist, everyone else is somewhere in the middle.
– And what combat/challenge/skill rules do (as you said in detail) are give everyone a common language so that they can role play without having to be thespians. e.g., ‘I, uhm, ahm, recite a sonnet about his mother, to convince the guard to let me pass’ said the bard, and then rolled a diplomacy check. Its not quite combat, but its also not role playing requiring GM fiat to adjudicate. To paraphrase Clausewitz, combat is just the continuation of role playing by other means. 🙂
May 10, 2021 at 10:57 am
You should also consider that combats are consistently the part of the game where people are equally involved. Everybody has to do skill checks: you want to disengage to run to the back? skill check. you want to hurl a fireball at the enemy? skill check. you want to heal your comrade? skill check.
When you have an extended dungeon over multiple sessions filled with traps and locked doors and such, it’ll become a one character show: the thief’s. If you have to navigate a town of assholes and need to convince everybody that you should get the information, in some way or another, it’ll be the social character all day.
May 10, 2021 at 11:13 am
This is very true! And it’s very easy for a GM to design a non-combat session which by accident leaves the group watching one PC do all the work. This is particularly true of rogue-type characters, which often end up doing all the scouting, all the lock-picking, all the climbing, all the trap searching, and all the stealing. This was a huge problem in AD&D, which gave thieves a wide range of skills but no one else had any, and is why 3rd Edition shifted to a general skill system that gave PCs a better chance to be involved in all actions. It’s also part of the reason I encouraged my Genesys players to balance the group so that two PCs have the same skill, to ensure people can cooperate and enjoy many different forms of gaming. Everyone needs to be involved as often as possible!
May 10, 2021 at 11:17 am
Yes, I’ve been arguing for years against people who think social interaction shouldn’t be reduced to a skill check, because skill checks ensure that people with no knowledge of a topic (like sailing or survival) can do a thing they want their character to be able to do, and also that people who aren’t socially forward can participate in social interactions. Without skill rules, the noisiest and most gregarious person gets to do all the social stuff, and the shy person who wants to play a leader can’t. We’ve been on basically a 30 year process of finding ways to rein in the most obnoxious people at the table, and also the GM, without having to fall back on actual social confrontations. And I think a lot of those methods have worked!
May 13, 2021 at 1:08 pm
I think this is a common trope in Call of Cthulu circles, Hans Christian Vortisch has called the authors out for being lazy researching firearms and for erasing all the Lovecraft stories where protagonists have all the firearms they can get. As he says, if the player characters have a machine pistol, the baddies get them too! And aren’t well-armed crazy people cosmically terrifying?
Roleplaying games do often lack rules for making other challenges exciting (chases, exposure and outdoor adventures, etc.) This goes back to the origins in the hobby in tabletop wargaming and to the limits of computers.
May 13, 2021 at 1:14 pm
armin: if one character can do ‘all the social’ for the party, I think that is bad scenario design. Just like in any other problem-solving scenario, all the players should have to contribute to solve the problem. The same for sneaking, or land navigation, or gathering information. Adventurers have to be versatile and deal with unexpected situations.
May 13, 2021 at 2:37 pm
Vagans, I think the reason early RPGs lacked rules for other challenges (as I say in the piece) is that they were expected to resolve them entirely narratively. The rules were developed later to handle the fact that narrative solutions often suck. The rules are bodgy because it’s hard to regularize very general scenarios. Actually WFRP3 (on which Genesys is based) had a good method for generally handling chases and investigations, based on a progress tracker, which incorporated all the different aspects of RPGs, but Genesys threw it away, and now the Genesys forum is trying to pretend that it’s less combat-heavy than WFRP3. Hmm.
An interesting point about the firearms. A common response in the forum where I raised the issue of Genesys combat rules was to say “well Gensys is designed for firearms” and to say that the problems I raised disappear when the PCs are up against guns. This doesn’t work because unless you use some extremely dodgy meta-narrative tricks, the PCs are gonna get those guns once they win the fight. So then instead of reducing the amount of combat by over-powering the enemies, you’ve given the PCs lots of combat power. It’s a continually unaddressed problem in high-tech games!
May 13, 2021 at 2:39 pm
I think the point Armin is making is not a normative one, but a procedural one. If you remove combat from the game, it will rely on other skills for other circumstances, and it’s likely under any given rule system that this will benefit some players more than others. Yes you can still involve others in “the social” or “the investigation” or whatever but let’s not kid ourselves about what this means in reality for many systems. And we’re not talking here about whether and how you as a GM overcome this problem – we’re talking about the existence of this problem within a system. As Armin says, in this regard combat is often the great leveller – the rules are designed to ensure everyone gets to participate somehow.
May 14, 2021 at 2:20 am
faustusnotes: I think the reason for the “rulings by GM fiat” in early wargames was that the roleplaying was tacked onto a wargame. The wargame already had rules for combat, everything else had to be added. Man-to-Man, Chaninmail, and that wargame set around a town in Napoleonic Germany were all wargames.
Ironically, this has returned in some recent versions of D&D which tried to shove the ‘non-combat’ spells like Tenser’s Floating Disc into a separate category from magic missile and flight.
In the systems I have played and run, I have not experienced that “the social” or “the investigation” is inherently a one-character task the way sneaking is in early D&D.
May 14, 2021 at 2:35 am
If combat is something everyone can do but a single character can handle “information gathering” or “social interaction” for the whole party, that is a design choice in the system which communicates which activity players are supposed to focus on. Its not inherent because anyone can talk to people, investigate things, travel through the wilderness, try to escape pursuers, etc. Police procedurals tend to be good models for less combat-centred adventures by teams.
May 14, 2021 at 2:53 am
The Napoleonic wargame was Braunstein https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braunstein_(wargame)
The way Vampire characters are trapped in a specific city connects to your idea of VtM as “high school drama.” Students can’t leave high school or easily change schools, VtM vampires can’t easily move from Detroit to Windsor.
May 14, 2021 at 11:29 am
Vagans, I didn’t know about Braunstein, that’s cool. It’d be interesting to see how the wild west setting worked.
The thing that really struck me as high school drama in VTM was the role of different cliques, which even have their own aesthetic and in-group codes, and the fact that the players have to know soooooo much about the politics of these cliques to survive in the setting. Also there’s a lot of passive-aggressive social conflict that reminds me a lot of high school. I think the authors were acting out their trauma from school, and that environment naturally and inevitably encourages the GM to resolve their own trauma by bullying the players. The GM effectively represents the “popular” clique in high school so gets to be the bully.
Yes I think it’s a design choice in many systems to give too much role in specific situations to specific PCs, which makes it hard for the GM to come up with non-combat adventures that balance everyone’s involvement. The classic example of this is hacking in Cyberpunk or Shadowrun, where a whole session can be one PC doing everything, because it becomes a mini-adventure on its own. It’s much better to make this a single skill check or farm it off to an NPC. Trap-finding and scouting is another good example, which is why it’s good, if the system is designed this way, to separate the “thief” role (opening locks and finding traps) from the scout role (stealth and ambush).Or to make multiple people able to do this. This is why I think social skills have proliferated: you can have multiple ways to solve the same social conflict, and one PC can do it with intimidate, another with charm, and so on, so people can contribute together. But it’s only combat that easily unites the whole group in many systems, and usually doesn’t require design attention from the GM to ensure everyone can participate.
May 15, 2021 at 6:56 am
I have heard that VtM campaigns often becomes “blood-powered supers” rather than high-school drama with murder. And I have read published CoC adventures which are a string of fights separated by exposition.
I am confused what people are actually playing these days though. There are systems like Bubblegumshoe or Hillfolk which are not centred around combat in the way that many systems are. There is some data on sales, but most game books I bought I never played, and most play was centred around a handful of books often bought used.
May 15, 2021 at 10:54 am
Regarding what people are playing, given there’s a pandemic it seems like searching roll20 might be a good way to find out. I just did, and found 750 open D&D5e games, 3 13th Age, 8 world of darkness and 13 warhammer. Roll20 published a blog summarizing their gaming stats which I guess includes all hidden games, and found 60% of extant games are D&D5e or Pathfinder. The biggest campaign growth was in Cyberpunk and Year Zero Engine (nice to see!) If we group Call of Cthulhu and World of Darkness into “games that aren’t mostly combat” (even though as you observe, this is probably not true), I think it’s safe to say that about 12% of current campaigns are in this style, and most of those are Cthulhu. The biggest growth is in pretty combat-heavy systems like Cyberpunk, and even Shadowrun is growing faster than WoD. So I think it’s safe to say that the popular games are the “combat heavy” ones!
Interesting point about VtM games becoming blood-powered supers. My World of Darkness group rebelled against our GM twice and told him we’d quit if he kept running the campaign like a bully (not that it helped), and after we finished we hatched elaborate schemes to make sure that he never GMd again. I imagine blood-powered superheroes is about the only way to make the system work. Hrmph!
June 1, 2021 at 10:10 am
I don’t want to speak for somebody else whose ideas I may not properly understand–I don’t want to give the idea, for example, that he was taking a position on how much combat there should be, because I don’t know what views, if any, he might have had on that point. So I’ll make up my own example, instead: suppose the PCs enter a situation where there’s a violent (or sometimes violent, or potentially violent) conflict between NPCs: something like a blood feud or a civil war, for example. Would it be more trouble, do you think, to set this up in a way which gives the PCs a choice of which side to support?
June 2, 2021 at 10:16 am
In my experience it generally is more trouble to do this, not just because you have to prepare some level of material for each side, but also because you have to prepare potential encounters and events for both sides and the interactions between them. But also, in general, it’s a lot of time wasted because you can be fairly sure that the players will have a preference for a side to pick, and you typically can guess what side to pick, and if you spend a lot of time preparing info on both sides you’re just wasting half of it. This was my experience in the Compromise and Conceit campaign, where the PCs could choose between colonist independence fighters (represented by Washington, who they killed) or the native Americans (represented by Magua) and of course they chose the latter. If I had spent a lot of time preparing a pathway and setting for if they chose Washington’s side, I’d simply have not got to use it.
(Also in general by the time the side-picking occurs overtly, players have usually made multiple small choices that have already affixed them to one side).
June 7, 2021 at 12:43 pm
Fair enough. Thanks.
December 13, 2021 at 7:48 am
As someone who is involved with both the swrpg and Genesys server my experience is people who come from d&d tend to expect combat to be a much larger portion of the gaming time. Having played old skill tsr ad&d and exactly 2 sessions of Pathfinder combat took forever.
So your not wrong in saying that the amount of combat might be the same, however Genesys isn’t set up to run combat where it take 3 hours to eliminate an opponent and d&d is.
So while there might be the same number or frequency of combat encounters, Genesys wants it to move along quickly, cinematically, not something that is the majority of your session time. Infact in Genesys you might have more combat even, in terms of instances but still much less of the total session usually.
There’s nothing wrong with liking combat, and with some borrowing from swrpg’s mass combat, squads and phalanxes and other rules, Genesys can be highly tactical. However it will won’t be a chess match where ever turn is a deeply weighed set of calculations that players agonize over. Which has been my experience with even the most snappy of d&d games.
Now I have no idea what your combat suggestions were, so I can’t comment. But I do know looking at rules and page amounts, abstracted arguments about feminism d&d and Genesys, or comparing it to vampire the masquerade all seem like they fail in explaining the situation that I’ve experienced.
Which is this… d&d is so dominate an rpg, so overwhelmingly the popular choice and is a very crunchy, rigid mechanical set of rules that allow you to play the game much like an MMO, focusing on your build, min maxing, and really focusing on beating enemies. It’s how you got xp to advance for the bulk of it’s history. Even the pop-fantasy genre tends to stack it’s deck in that direction in general. Big heroes with big swords, naked or almost naked women and powerful wizards that can throw fire balls like ryu or Ken. Many of the gamers who might start in MMOs, if they transition to pen and papers RPGs do so through d&d and often bring with them MMO ideals.
It creates a culture where combat is much much more inherent, expected and often the real goal of any plots. I’ve experienced this frequently gm-ing for players sliding from d&d to Genesys or swrpg. D&d, with perhaps the exception (or not) of women like yourself is very much a macho landscape in my experience. It’s one reason I didn’t like interacting with the d&d community I found.
I don’t know what your particular interaction was with those who disagreed with your perspective, but If I was among them it would be pushing back on Genesys needing to be modified to feel more d&d because for me that was macho meat head gaming or boring MMO grinding at it’s height. It would be for the very opposite reason you attributed. That combat should serve a function in the story and not be the story itself.
That fact you have a certain way of gaming is your own business, but there is a distinct culture clash I’ve seen between d&d gamers and people who play fate, Genesys, cortex etc beyond what you seem to be recognizing here
Genesys has community flaws as well, gaming unfortunately is still very male dominated, and more so full of socially awkward and reclusive people who often use this niche to be pretentious… And if that’s what you found, that sucks I’m sorry.
However my experience Genesys, because it inherently contains many more setting concept an has less cliched characters you can build, and because it attracts gamers who are moving away from MMO style RPGs it usually attracted to the narrative control, it’s players… Imo, are also less focused on “me smash” and instead want to tell a good story.
The game actively facilities this much more in it’s very mechanics in a way d&d just doesn’t. Which also leads to retention of players to the system who want a narrative and varied play style and disappoints MMO people who go on to play star wars 5e instead. Thus the culture of players perpetuates values that tend to be different than d&ders imo.
December 14, 2021 at 11:42 am
Thanks for your comment shard. I think you’re wrong about how much portion of gaming time combat in Genesys takes, for starters. Let me give you an example.
That forum I mentioned is administered by a somewhat well-known figure in Genesys development, who has work published on the Foundry and also runs a youtube channel with recordings of live play. He posted one of those in the forum that described his use of genesys for a zombie apocalypse setting, so I watched a bit. And what happened? First of all, the first scene was a fight, and secondly, it was incredibly slow – like one round took 10 minutes kind of slow. I asked if this was a stylistic preference, a problem with using online tools, or the consequence of game mechanics, and got blocked from the forum. There was no urgency in the battel at all, it was like a picnic, and it was awesomely complicated in game terms. Contra what you say, it is not “much less of the total session” and it certainly relies on “a deeply weighed set of calculations”. The dice themselves are a deeply weighed set of calculations in contrast to D&D, and there is a critical table for god’s sake. A critical table! In the youtube video I saw the GM had set up a table for interpreting threats and despairs. Furthermore, the initiative system (where PCs and enemies share initiative slots not individual slots) leads to a huge amount of agonizing over deeply weighted calculations.
Furthermore, the idea that Genesys doesn’t have “a very crunchy rigid mechanical set of rules” and doesn’t have its own brand of “focusing on your build, min maxing” is very naive. Genesys has exactly the same structures as d&d: attributes, skills and talents. It has weapon types with different damage and properties (just like D&D). Typically it has character classes with the same typical properties as D&D. If you had read my combat suggestions you would be aware that the classic min-max strategy in Genesys is to boost brawn, which guarantees fighters are better in and out of combat than other characters. It has all the same flaws as D&D, but for some reason its community of adherents refuse to see them.
Next, D&D does not have ” a culture where combat is much more inherent.” Where are the rules for traps and poisons in the Genesys rulebook? What about crafting? If you want an investigation and horror game, D&D has the rules all there, but Genesys you have to fudge them yourself. There is nothing in the rules for enchantment type spells, and no functioning system for making them work. Social interactions, instead of being a freewheeling system of interaction with some skills to back them up, have been formalized in a clunky social combat system. Genesys has tried to make social interactions more like combat, yet you say it doesn’t have a culture where combat is more inherent. What about the critical table!? It’s the very model of a crunchy combat system!
As for saying there is a “distinct culture clash between d&D gamers and players of fate, Genesys, cortex etc”, first of all I wouldn’t lump Genesys in with those systems, and secondly please don’t mistake me for a D&D player. As I said at the start of this post, I’ve played them all, and I came to this system after several years in Year Zero Engine, which is definitely a game where combat takes up less time.
Finally, I don’t think you should say that Genesys “inherently contains more setting concept”. Have you heard of Forgotten Realms? And spare me the “focuses on players who want to tell a good story”. It’s so patronizing to people from other gaming systems, and especially to GMs (like me) who can tell a good story in any system. And why, why, why, is it so bad to want to have combat in games? Your comment is riddled with phrases suggesting that this is bad, and that Genesys doesn’t do this (which is completely false), but why is this bad? What are you trying to say with this?