Buy this man a beer!

[Stalin] should have gone further still. Then Hitler wouldn’t have reached the Volga.

General Gudz, Life and Fate

Having just finished Vassily Grossman’s The People Immortal, and angered by my criticisms of its translators, I tried to find books in English about Operation Barbarossa that were written by Soviet historians. Unfortunately I could only find books by westerners (Glantz, Beevor, Merridale, etc), many of which seem hellbent on an anti-Soviet description of this existential battle. They often seem to repeat standard stereotypes about the war, and indeed in an afterword to The People Immortal the translator Chandler even admits that he for many years believed a direct lie about Grossman (that he was denied the Stalin prize for literature on the orders of Stalin himself). These anti-communist interpretations of Soviet wartime life are quite ubiquitous and subtle, and reveal themselves even in “objective” information like basic statistics about the war. The above-linked Wikipedia article on Operation Barbarossa, for example, has very different casualty breakdowns for each side of the campaign, which make Nazi and Soviet figures non-comparable. For some reason the figure for Soviet “casualties” includes “sick or wounded due to combat and non-combat causes” and the death figure has a bracketed number for those who died of their wounds in hospital, while the Nazi figure just gives the number of casualties, with a ludicrously small separate figure for illness, and gives no details about deaths in hospital. This is a sly attempt to inflate and obfuscate Soviet casualties while minimizing Nazi casualties (no German was injured of non-combat causes? Not a single drunk German was run over by a tank or died of hypothermia in a ditch?)

This subtle digging at Soviet efforts is part of a long-standing tradition of open derision for the Soviet war effort. It goes alongside the general principle that the Soviet response to German invasion in 1941 was incompetent and poorly managed, that the Soviet army was inferior in organization and strategy to those of democratic nations, and that its catastrophic first six months were of its own making. This is a weird story to tell, since it was the Soviet Union – not those supposedly better-organized western armies – that won the war, and the Soviet Union was facing off against a more experienced foe that had already thoroughly and comprehensively smashed the larger, technologically and industrially more advanced armies of the western democracies. It’s a little incongruous.

Part of this story about Soviet ill-preparedness rests on the idea that Stalin purged the top generals from his army, and as a result it was in chaos and disorganization in 1941, while the western armies were not purged and were left alone to do their own thing. In fact the translator of The People Immortal mentions this in the introduction and backnotes, and it seems to be a general preamble to every description of the Soviet war effort. But is it true? In this post I aim to use a few basic statistics and facts about the various campaigns of the war, along with a brief assessment of the biographies of the Soviet generals who were purged and those who led the defense of the Union, to argue that this may not have been true, and in fact that the western democracies performed worse than the Red Army, even at its worst in 1941.

Figure 1: Stages of the Nazi advance in Operation Barbarossa

A brief comparison of the invasions of France and Eastern Europe

The Nazi invasion of France and the Low Countries took 45 days, pitted 3.6 million Axis troops against 3.45 million Allied troops, and ended with the complete capitulation of France, Luxembourg and Belgium. The British Expeditionary Force of ~400,000 men was routed, and would have been captured in its entirety if not for the brave last stand of French soldiers around Dunkirk, and the desperate small boats evacuation. This invasion enabled the German Army to capture approximately 600,000 km2 of land area covering three countries, with a maximum distance from Berlin of about 900 km (Berlin to Calais). In this 45 days the German Army defeated what was then considered one of the most powerful armies in the world (the French), overcame the supposedly impregnable Maginot defensive line, and showed a remarkable and unprecedented degree of combined arms tactical skill. In that 45 days the Nazi army captured three national capitals and all the most important cities of western Europe.

The Nazi invasion of Eastern Europe, Operation Barbarossa, pitted 3.8 million Axis troops against 2.9 million Soviet soldiers[1], and ended with the Nazi army forced to a grinding halt outside Moscow. Operation Barbarossa lasted 163 days, was launched by surprise (without a preceding “phony war”), and involved multiple massive tactical sub-battles. Although it was able to capture small countries like Estonia and Latvia, it failed to completely capture Ukraine and it also failed to destroy the Soviet arms industry, which was moved behind the Urals successfully ahead of the German army. Operation Barbarossa captured about 1.9 million km2 of land over 163 days, with a maximum distance from Berlin of about 1800 km (Berlin to Moscow). In this 163 days the Nazi army failed to capture key cities like Leningrad, Moscow, Rostov, or Stalingrad.

These figures tell us that it took the Germans almost 4 times as long to travel twice as far[2], and to capture three times as much land area. At least at the beginning of the operation (see footnote 1) they did this against a smaller army than they had faced in the west, spread out over a longer defensive line, with less preparation, from an industrially less-developed nation. Looked at like this, it doesn’t seem like such an achievement does it?

The statistics of World War 2 military campaigns

Another way to examine the effectiveness of the different armies is to consider the deaths and injuries they incurred and inflicted during their victories or defeats. Using Wikipedia, I obtained approximate counts of the forces involved in five major world war 2 campaigns, and their mortality rates. I could not analyze injury rates because the easily-available data for Operation Barbarossa had very weird numbers for injuries (see above), and I didn’t analyze numbers of soldiers captured because, since the French lost, basically everyone in the western campaign was, effectively, captured[3].

Table 1 shows the numbers of soldiers deployed by Nazi and non-Nazi forces in four separate campaigns, along with the number of deaths, the mortality rate per 100 person-years[5], and the rate ratio. Rate ratios for Nazi forces are calculated relative to the death rate of Nazis in France, and rate ratios for non-Nazis are calculated relative to the death rate of non-Nazis in France. This enables us to compare, for example, the mortality rate for Nazis in Operation Barbarossa, which lasted 163 days, against the mortality rate for Nazis in France, which last 45 days; and to compare the Red Army’s death rate in Barbarossa with the Allied forces in France.

Table 1: Mortality rates in four different WW2 campaigns
ForceCampaignTimeSoldiersDeathsMortality rate (/100 py)Rate ratio
NaziFrance453,600,00027,0746.11
Not NaziFrance453,450,00073,00017.21
NaziBarbarossa1633,800,000185,45210.91.79
Not NaziBarbarossa1632,900,000567,00043.82.55[4]
NaziTorch8125,0001,35049.38.08
Not NaziTorch8107,0001,80076.84.47
NaziCase Blue1471,800,000350,00048.37.91
Not NaziCase Blue1471,715,0001,200,000173.710.12
NaziKutuzov36301,00086,454291.247.74
Not NaziKutuzov36800,000429,890544.8331.74

The five campaigns are listed here.

  • France: The invasion of France, from 10 May – 14 June 1940, that ended with the complete capitulation of Western Europe
  • Barbarossa: The Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union, that began with the surprise attack on 22nd June 1941 and ended with the failed attack on Moscow on 5th December 1941.
  • Torch: Operation Torch, the Allied invasion of Africa from 8th – 15th November 1942, which took place at three separate landing sites in Egypt, Libya and Morocco. I wanted to use the entire Africa campaign but there are no reliable numbers. Note that Torch happened after the Nazis were well-and-truly sucked into the quagmire in Russia.
  • Case Blue: The Nazi summer offensive in the Soviet Union from 28th June – 24th November 1942, when they captured the rest of Ukraine and rushed for the Caucasus, ending with the encirclement of the German 6th Army in Stalingrad, but not including the subsequent battle of Stalingrad
  • Kutuzov: Operation Kutuzov, the Soviet counter-offensive against the German army in the north of Russia, which took place from 12th July – 18th August 1943, and began the process of destroying the Nazi abomination

It should be noted that the destruction of France was a remarkably bloodless campaign compared to the rest of the war, and had very low mortality rates compared to later campaigns. For the Nazis the death rate was 6.1 per 100 person-years, meaning that if 100 soldiers had fought a campaign like this for a year 6 of them would have died; for the Allies the rate was nearly 3 times that, at 17.2 per 100 person-years.

In comparison to this Operation Barbarossa was worse for both sides. Nazi soldiers died at 1.79 times the rate of Nazi soldiers in France, while Red Army soldiers died at 2.29 times the rate of their allies on the Western front. It should be noted that these rates dilute slightly if we include soldiers thrown into the meat grinder in the middle of the campaign, but since we don’t know when they joined or how many (from a trivial websearch) we can’t come up with better numbers.

After Barbarossa, the eastern front became a real bloodbath. Nazi soldiers in Case Blue (which was, from their perspective, mostly successful) died at 7.91 times the rate of soldiers who had invaded France two years earlier, while Red Army died at 10.12 times the rate of Allies in the breezy French campaign. After this Kutuzov was brutal, with Nazis dying at some 47 times the rate of just three years earlier in the West, and Red Army soldiers dying at 32 times the rate of the Allies in the French campaign. These are insane numbers, and show how brutal the eastern front became once the initial rush stalled.

By way of perspective, it is about 500 km from Taganrog to Stalingrad, and about 1000 km from Lwow to Taganrog. In Operation Barbarossa Nazi soldiers, dying at a rate of about 1000 a day, pushed 1000km from Lwow to Taganrog by December 1941, where they settled into warm requisitioned local homes to sit out the winter. The following summer, in Case Blue, those same soldiers died at a rate of about 2400 a day to travel half as far, to end up squatting in freezing cellars in Stalingrad while fat Goebbels parachuted them tins of spam that they had to risk death to catch. Then in 1943 when Operation Kutuzov began their compatriots further north retreated backward 240 km, dying at a rate of 2400 a day, to settle into slit trenches around Bryansk. Things were very nasty once the Soviets dug in!

In any case, the conclusion is that Red Army and Nazi soldiers died in Operation Barbarossa at about 1.5 to 2.5 times the rate of Allied or Nazi soldiers in the French campaign, and that this higher death rate was sustained for a much longer period, over which the Nazi army did not capture land, distance or strategic objectives at the same rate they had done on the Western front.

Essentially the Soviet army, less well-prepared than the French, attacked by surprise, with less soldiers spread over a wider front, inflicted greater losses on the Nazis than the Allies had done, over a much longer period, and gave up about a half to a third as much area as they would have done if they had fought as badly as the Allies had. Even though they faced many obstacles against a better-armed and more experienced enemy, they out-performed the French and the English in defending against and slowing the Nazi juggernaut. This occurred at a greater loss of lives, but that loss was not significantly different to the losses they inflicted on the Nazis. It should be noted that the greater loss of life inflicted on the Red Army also partially reflects the brutality of the Nazis, who fire-bombed the city of Gomel, had the infamous Commissar order, and treated Soviet prisoners of war with previously unheard-of brutality.

In the face of all this the Red Army did okay! There’s certainly no reason to expect that the surrender monkeys of 1939 Western Europe, who retreated 900 km in a big hurry and also lost every contact with the Nazis, could have done any better in the much more difficult conditions of the east. And the Red Army held its own in these circumstances despite the fact that their entire leadership had been reorganized by the purges. So let’s look at the purges.

The Purged and the Elevated

There are a surprising number of generals in an army, and I couldn’t be bothered with a full survey, but I grabbed a list of the most senior five generals who were purged in the 1935-38 frenzy, and compared them with the top five generals listed as leaders for Operation Barbarossa, which I show in Table 2

Table 2: Characteristics of purged and unpurged generals
NameAge in 1939WW1 serviceCivil war serviceFrunze
Purged
Tukhachevsky46YesYesNo
Yakir43NoYesNo
Uborevich43NoYesNo
Blyukher50YesYesNo
Primakov42NoYesNo
Unpurged
Zhukov43YesYesYes
Shaposhnikov57YesNoDirector
Vasilevsky44YesYesTeacher?
Voroshilov58NoYesNo
Timoshenko44YesYesNo

There isn’t really any noticeable difference between the generals who were purged and those who were not except that maybe the unpurged were a little older, and they had a close connection to the Frunze Military Academy. This Academy was established in 1918 and was named after Mikhail Frunze. Graduates of the Frunze academy earned a total of 244 Hero of the Soviet Union medals during world war 2, and its students were spread throughout the army. Although two of the five unpurged generals listed in Table 2 had no connection to Frunze, it should be noted that Voroshilov, who is credited with orchestrating the purge of Soviet generals, was the guy who directed the removal of Soviet war industries behind the Urals, recognizing that the biggest threat to Soviet survival would be their capture by a belligerent invader from the west (who could he have been thinking of!?) If he had not done that, we’d all be speaking German now! He also lost his job for a while because of failures in the winter war, but was not purged.

Maybe – just maybe – if the generals who were not purged had been in charge in 1941, the Red Army’s response to Nazi surprise attack would have been worse, uninformed by the elite education offered to the newly-elevated generals by the Frunze academy, and dominated by civil war doctrine that was no longer relevant in the era of combined arms warfare. This possibility is best illustrated by the great man whose image is at the top of this post, Vasily Chuikov. Chuikov was born in 1900 to a peasant family and left school at 12. He became a Bolshevik at 17 and attended the Frunze academy in 1921, where he learnt to read and write and also learnt Mandarin. He was later posted to China, where he spent a year traveling and learning the language before working as military attache. In September 1942 he was given responsibility for the defense of the city of Stalingrad itself, and in his book The Battle for Stalingrad he describes the development of the new doctrine of urban combat that had to be applied in the specific circumstances of close urban warfare with no retreat. After the victory at Stalingrad he fought all the way to Berlin, where he accepted the surrender of German generals. He received the Hero of the Soviet Union award twice, and is buried at the Mamayev Kurgan in Volgograd (which was then Stalingrad), so that he could be at rest alongside the men who died fighting for the city.

Chuikov is a classic new Soviet man, the kind of soldier, scholar and activist who could not exist in any other time and place. He was also the ideal kind of soldier to be fighting an existential war against an exterminationist ideology that cannot be reasoned with or placated. No French or English or American general could possibly understand Vasily Chuikov, his mission, the circumstances in which he grew up and fought, the decisions he had to make or the pressures he and his nation faced. Men like Chuikov are the reason that Western Europeans are still able to speak their own languages and the reason that any Jewish people survived the European conflagration. Men like Chuikov were elevated to positions of command because Stalin trusted them, because they were trained by the pre-eminent military academy, and because places became available when other generals were purged. Sure, maybe Tukhachevsky didn’t need to be sent to prison, maybe Yakir could have just got a nice retirement package, but it was imperative for human history that by 1942 people like Chuikov were able to take charge.

Conclusion

I don’t think it’s necessarily the case that the purges affected Red Army morale or effectiveness negatively, or indeed at all. I don’t think the western armies could have performed better, and indeed the only evidence we have is that they performed worse, giving up land faster and refusing to make difficult decisions to preserve the independence of their own nations. I think if the Red Army had been led by the men who capitulated in western Europe the Russian people would have been exterminated to the last man and woman by 1950. I don’t know if the purges were essential for the replacement of the Soviet Union’s top military leadership with people who were more flexible and better-trained soldiers, but I think it’s possible that some kind of reshuffle was necessary to allow the ascension of a new cadre of soldiers who were equal to the monumental task they were about to face. I certainly do not see any evidence in either the actual performance of these armies, or the statistics from the war, to support the idea that the Red Army performed worse than the western armies, or that its performance was necessarily affected by the purges.

I think we should be very careful about interpreting the history of 1933-1945 through the lens of modern liberalism, and we should read the opinions of non-Soviet historians of the war with extreme care, since almost all of them are staunchly anti-communist. Millions of Soviet men and women died to preserve their freedom and to save western Europe from itself, and we should honor and respect their sacrifice by attempting to look at the war through their eyes, and understanding it from their perspective. And that means, ultimately, that we have to consider the possibility that the leadership they chose, and the leaders they fought for, and the tactics they followed, were the best for the time.

And most of all we should always recognize that they saved us from an ideology we created and unleashed on them, at enormous cost to themselves, their society and their nation. We should not think that our armies would have done any better, or that our ways of organizing our political institutions and militaries are superior to the methods that actually won the war while we watched.


fn1: It’s difficult to judge the exact number involved, because over 163 days of campaign a lot of additional soldiers were thrown into the battle, plus of course there were partisans and militias and auxiliaries involved on both sides. There is a map on Reddit that suggests 5 million Soviet soldiers over the whole course of the battle, and the Wikipedia numbers are very weird. I’m not going to go to a library for a blog post, so this will have to be approximate.

fn2: They started from the Ribbentropp line, which perhaps practically means they had to travel 1300 km, but this isn’t a great improvement – it took them 4 times as long to travel 1.5 times further.

fn3: I think the capture rates are better on the eastern front though: approximately 3 million soldiers out of 5 million, maybe; vs. 3.2 million out of 3.5 million in the French campaign.

fn4: If we assume 5 million soldiers over the campaign, these numebrs change to a mortality rate of 25.4 per 100 person-years for the Red Army, which is a relative risk of death of 1.48 times that of the Allies in the invasion of France – lower than the relative risk the Nazis faced in the east!

fn5: Deaths per 100 person-years are a standard epidemiological method for comparing exposures of differing length. Basically it uses the number of soldiers in the field multiplied by the length of the campaign, rather than just the number of soldiers. If we had individual data we could calculate person-years from each person’s deployment history, which would be particularly valuable in Barbarossa since we could count 2.1 million Soviet soldiers being thrown into the fray later in the campaign, each contributing 50-80 days of time in the campaign (rather than the full 163 days). Also if we had individual exposure records we could account for the fact that most deaths in the Eastern front happened in the first month, while a great many of the deaths in France happened near the end (so many Soviet soldiers only fought for a few person-days before dying). We don’t have this data, but we can at least account for the length of the campaign.

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12 responses to “Did Stalin’s Purge of the Generals Really Hinder the Soviet War Effort?”

  1. J-D Avatar
    J-D

    Fat Goebbels? You’re thinking of Goering, right?

    Sure, maybe Tukhachevsky didn’t need to be sent to prison, maybe Yakir could have just got a nice retirement package …

    Is it controversial if I suggest that they shouldn’t have been shot dead for things they didn’t do?

  2. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    J-D! Long time no see! Yes, I guess I meant Goering, but let’s leave it unedited because it’s kind of cute with the error there.

    Do we know for sure that they didn’t do things that they should have been shot for? Voroshilov was removed from his post for a year for incompetence but he wasn’t executed. Why was Tukhachevsky? In the Wikipedia article about this dude it says that he did a tour of European countries a few months before he was arrested. Could it be that he was up to something, and he was executed for a very real crime (treason) under a false charge? Spies get executed all the time, but the government doesn’t always give the stated reasons if there are propaganda purposes to lying. It’s worth remembering that from 1918 to 1990 the Soviet Union was subject to constant western interference, which in the period 1917 – 1921, and then 1941 to about 1953, was overtly violent. At around about the time that Tukhachevsky was touring western nations Stalin was trying to organize an anti-Hitler alliance with the west, which they resolutely rejected because they were hoping that Hitler would exterminate communism. How do we know Tukhachevsky and the other generals weren’t involved in undermining that, either deliberately or unwittingly? I note that the Wikipedia article cites speculation about why Stalin purged Tukhachevsky from Simon Sebag Montefiore, who is a rabid zionist and never saw a colonial project he didn’t like. Is it a surprise that he would conclude Stalin’s purge was unnecessary? Is he a good judge of the character of military officers, or their motivations? Do we know anything about the Soviet Union’s preparations for the Nazi invasion that isn’t filtered through western academia? As I note in the start to this article almost everything written in English about the Soviet experience of the war is written by western academics with a broadly anti-communist perspective. Only 12 of the 53 references in the Wikipedia article about Tukhachevsky are by Russians, drawn from about 8 books, and several of them are basic historical facts (like his name). Almost all the information in English about his trial draws on western sources. I don’t think it’s controversial for you to suggest he shouldn’t have been shot for things he didn’t do, but maybe it is controversial to suggest he should have been shot for things he did do?

    Which brings me to an aside – is it wrong to shoot generals for their mistakes? The consequences of the early mistakes of the Soviet generals in Barbarossa were the deaths of hundreds of thousands of men, and throughout the first year of the war ordinary soldiers were executed for cowardice. If ordinary soldiers are going to die for the mistakes that their leaders make, shouldn’t it be a reasonable expectation that the leaders suffer a similar fate? Since they’re not at the frontline, that fate obviously needs to be dealt to them by someone from their own side. Should it not be? Given that it’s the job of a soldier to die, is it weird to punish them (either in war or peace) with death? I know from a practical policy perspective it doesn’t make sense to do this (since it will encourage generals to cover up mistakes or to waste the lives of extra soldiers to avoid their mistakes being discovered) but from a moral perspective, is it wrong? If these dudes didn’t want to risk death they should have chosen a job that doesn’t have death as a natural, sometimes even necessary, part of its daily function. And especially, in the Workers and Peasants Army, it seems like it should be a reasonable assumption that the leadership be exposed to the same risks as the rank and file. Otherwise it’s the Workers and Peasants (and others) Army, isn’t it?

    I have never really thought about it before, but maybe killing generals for being disorganized or sloppy or sitting through a play when a warning is being issued (as happened to Pavlov) isn’t unreasonable? If generals are able to arbitrarily send men to their deaths for uncertain and risky goals, as is often the case in war, is it wrong for the civilian leadership to do the same thing to them? If Tukhachevsky is authorized to send a bunch of men to certain death in an engagement in support of potentially unrealizable tactical or strategic gains elsewhere in the war, is it unreasonable for Stalin to send him to certain death in support of potentially unrealizable strategic gains (like the appointment of Chuikov, which was of world-historical importance)? It’s a distasteful question, isn’t it? But if you don’t want to be exposed to the question, don’t join the army!

  3. J-D Avatar
    J-D

    It should be obvious that Mikhail Tukhachevsky and his co-defendants were not executed for poor performance in the Second World (or Great Patriotic) War. Discussing the pros and cons of shooting commanders for poor wartime performance (as in the notorious case of Admiral John Byng) is irrelevant to the discussion of a case where generals were executed in peacetime.

    Your other point I can also answer, but not with equal concision.

    I don’t know how often it happens, but it certainly happens sometimes, that police officers (and also sometimes other officials, such as prosecutors) concoct prosecution cases, and in doing so themselves commit crimes such as perjury or perverting the course of justice or others whose technical names I don’t know. If somebody were on trial for this kind of crime, it should be no defence at all that after they framed the defendant, genuine evidence independently emerged that the defendant was guilty, still less that the defendant, although not guilty of the crime for which they were framed, was guilty of some other crime. In the same way, the fact that the defendants in the purge trials might conceivably have been guilty of some crime or other is no justification for framing them. Anybody might conceivably be guilty of some crime or other: I might; you might. That’s no justification for framing us.

  4. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    That’s all well and good J-D but we aren’t in a court of law here, we’re preparing our nation for an existential war to save the human soul.

    I also don’t think the idea that Tukhachevsky was executed in “peacetime” really holds up. The Russian civil war ended in 1922, and the anti-Soviet forces were directly supported by western powers. The OUN formed in Austria in 1929 and killed Soviets abroad and domestically from 1929 – 1940, before morphing into the OUN-B that supported the Nazis in murdering Soviet citizens and Jews during the war. The UPA ended its activities in the Soviet Union sometime between 1953 and 1956, and was supported by westerners including former Ukrainian Nazis who had been evacuated by the allies to Canada and the USA. From 1932 – 1939 there was an ongoing border conflict with Japan on the edge of its puppet state of Manchukuo, with repeated incursions by Manchukuo and IJA soldiers that only ended after major battles in 1938 and 1939. Japan was an ally of Nazi Germany from 1936 onward, and every week the leader of that ally – the largest industrial power in Europe, that was rearming and slowly taking over its neighbors – was on the radio or at rallies telling people he intended to slaughter the entire Soviet people. While he was making those statements the rest of Europe were repeatedly rebuffing Stalin’s attempts to form a united front against the Nazis, because they saw the Nazis as a useful tool to destroy communism. This wasn’t a weird conspiracy theory of Stalin’s either, because in 1936 there was a fascist coup in Spain which the rest of Europe immediately leapt to help, in league with the Nazis, to make sure that the popular democratic will of the Spanish people could not be exercised. So in fact, from 1917 to 1953 the Soviet Union only had about 7 years of peace, and was fighting direct confrontations with fascists or their European enablers for 19 of those years, and against partisans funded or supported by them for about 20 years. Those generals were purged during wartime, not peacetime. It is *very* obvious that for the entire time Stalin was in power in the USSR the western nations were directly and indirectly trying to depose him and destroy the Soviet project, including supporting fascists and fascist partisans within the USSR’s borders. The only reason that they intervened against Hitler at all is because he made the mistake of attacking Poland. If he had found a way to invade the USSR without forcing the UK to adhere to its treaty obligations, the European powers would have been helping him with arms and material in his war against the USSR. Now you could argue that nobody in the west took Hitler’s promises seriously in 1936 and Stalin was overreacting to purge his generals in preparation for war, but Stalin said from the beginning that Hitler was serious and by 1936 it was clear that Hitler was enacting every part of the platform he’d been yelling about in MUnich bars in 1925.

    Remember it’s not paranoia if they’re actually out to get you! And it’s not peace just because the arseholes didn’t sign a declaration of war!

  5. J-D Avatar
    J-D

    The only point I was trying to discuss was whether there was justification for the execution of Mikhail Tukhachevsky and his co-defendants.

    There was not.

    That’s all.

  6. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Well, you were arguing that they should not have been executed in peacetime, perhaps because you recognize that executing generals in wartime is a different case, and I was simply making the point that the USSR was not at peace.

    As to whether there was justification: the trial documents and his confession state that he was planning a coup. One of the co-conspirators of Yenukidhze, who supposedly hired Tukhachevsky with German money in 1928, stated in a memoir that he was a rightist who tolerated anti-communists in his orbit. Spying for the Germans and planning to overthrow the government in 1936 is obviously bad! Every allied nation was killing spies *in peacetime* even after the war. Is it your argument that the USSR, facing the full might of Nazi Germany and Fascist Japan, should have been more lenient on spies than the allied nations? Or is it that he didn’t do the crimes for which he confessed, and that you believe the alternative narrative that he was killed simply for being friends with a guy Stalin didn’t like?

    Bear in mind as you assess the “true” reasons for his execution that there had been an assassination in the inner circle (Kirov) and it was investigation of that killing that led to these purges. I think you should consider the possibility that there really was something bad happening at the highest levels in the leadership, and for the good of the USSR something had to be done about that. Or do you believe the story told by Montefiore that the entire sorry affair was just Stalin being a dick?

  7. J-D Avatar
    J-D

    Well, you were arguing that they should not have been executed in peacetime …

    No, I wasn’t. Perhaps I should try being even more concise.

    Concisely: when the evidence that something was done consists of confessions extracted under torture, I call that a frame-up, and a frame-up is never justification for punishing somebody.

  8. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Most convictions in modern courts are also extracted by confessions, many of which are obtained by coercion and some by torture. And your original point wasn’t about the nature of the confession, but a claim that they were killed or lost their careers for things they “didn’t do”. But what if they did them!?

  9. J-D Avatar
    J-D

    Most convictions in modern courts are also extracted by confessions, many of which are obtained by coercion and some by torture. 

    I have no idea whether this is as common as you suggest, but regardless of how common it is, it doesn’t justify punishing people, at all, let alone with death.

    And your original point wasn’t about the nature of the confession, but a claim that they were killed or lost their careers for things they “didn’t do”. But what if they did them!?

    The fact that somebody might conceivably be guilty of something also doesn’t justify punishment, let alone the death penalty.

    If somebody said to me that a government (any government) is justified in detaining anybody they think might be guilty of a crime, torturing them to extract a confession, and then using that to justify putting them to death, I would know what to think. It’s true that this is not a position which you have endorsed, but you give the impression of somebody who is not in a hurry to take the opportunity to repudiate it. If you do repudiate it, you might want to think about how it is that you’re creating this impression.

  10. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I guess I’m not interested in repudiating that idea in every place and time. I have no idea what really happened in 1936, but if this general was spying for the Nazis or conspiring with the allies to prevent a joint front against the Nazis then he was guilty of a great sin. If the intelligence agencies in the USSR knew and decided for political reasons to try, convict and execute him on trumped up charges rather than e.g. just dropping some polonium in his tea on a random sunday, I’m not really troubled. If Al Capone’s mob activities were too hard to get him on but he was sloppy on his taxes well, that’s too bad too. Similarly if it’s too hard to get Trump on the insurrection charges but the child abuse sticks, I’m not shedding a tear. And I would like to see Netanyahu and his whole gang of monsters on trial in the Hague but I’m realistic about the prospects of that happening, so I’m not going to cry very many tears if Hezbollah find a way to deal with them using an fpv drone. We don’t live in a perfect world, largely because of people like this, and sometimes you have to go to court with the justice you have, not the justice you want.

    Which isn’t to say that Stalin’s persecution of Tukhachevsky et al wasn’t entirely spurious. I don’t know and I doubt we’ll ever know! But it’s always good to remember the context in which the USSR was making its diplomatic, political, military and economic decisions. It was not a context any western nation ever faced or will have to face!

  11. J-D Avatar
    J-D

    There is a difference between ‘there was evidence to demonstrate that Al Capone was guilty of tax offences’ and ‘somebody in the government imagined that Al Capone was guilty of something and used that as a justification for torturing a confession out of him’. As a matter of fact, nobody tortured a confession out of Al Capone. There is a difference between ‘there is evidence to demonstrate that Donald Trump is guilty of child abuse’ and ‘somebody in the government imagines that Donald Trump is guilty of something and uses that as a justification for torturing a confession out of him’. As a matter of fact, there is evidence that Donald Trump was guilty of insurrection, as I’m sure you know: the problem was that Republican Senators weren’t prepared to act on the basis of the evidence, and the continuing issue is not what to charge him with and not how to produce evidence, but how to get the case in front of an honest jury/court/tribunal.

    There is also a difference between ‘there was evidence to demonstrate that Mikhail Tukhachevsky was guilty of something’ and ‘somebody in the government imagined that Mikhail Tukhachevsky was guilty of something and used that as a justification for torturing a confession out of him’. For your part, you seem to be imagining that the Soviet government had evidence of his guilt which for some reason (you imagine, again) they did not wish to disclose. But the fact that you are able to imagine something is not justification for concluding that it is true. I am impelled to wonder why you are imagining the things you are imagining.

    In this case (as in other cases we might discuss, if we want to discuss other cases) there could be a person who would say ‘If there was no genuine evidence of wrongdoing by this person, if the case against them was entirely spurious, then the way they were treated was unjustified’. That’s certainly what I think. On the other hand, there could be a person who would say ‘Even if there was no genuine evidence of wrongdoing by this person, even if the case against them was entirely spurious, the way they were treated was still justified’. Would you say that? I can’t tell. You give the impression of somebody who wants to avoid that question. Why?

    It’s not an answer to the question that we have to consider the context in which the Soviet government acted. Of course we do, but there’s no such thing as a context which guarantees that any action in that context must be justified. I know there were in the past people who refused to admit that anything the Soviet government did could be unjustified, and maybe there still are. I know what to think about that position. But is it yours? I can’t tell.

  12. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    J-D the word “imagined” is doing a lot of work here. I’m not suggesting that anyone “imagined” that these generals were doing crimes – I’m saying that I suspect they *knew* the generals were doing crimes, and for geopolitical reasons decided to publicly execute them for an actually imaginary crime. Such as one would do, for example, if one had busted an allied spy ring but didn’t want the allies and/or the general public to know this. It happens all the time! What seems to be going on here though is you think I believe the imagined crimes of the show trial were the actual crimes that these generals committed. I don’t! I think the show trial was a show, but not a show in which western ideologues interpret it (a performance to kill an innocent man) but a show as the word show is meant to mean (a cover of something else[1]). The only “imagining” going on here is my supposition that yes it was a show, but it wasn’t a show for the reasons you think it was a show. I think these generals may have been genuinely bad! If in fact these generals were blameless and they were killed for no reason and the show trial was held to convince the public to genuinely believe that they did the crimes in the show, then yes, I’m happy to concede (as you request) that their treatment was unjustified, I’m happy to concede that – but I don’t think that’s what actually happened and I think we’ll never be able to prove what actually happened because for obvious reasons no evidence of the real motivations of the people involved was recorded.

    You seem to be under the illusion here that I should have some sympathy for generals. Let me be clear: I have no sympathy for generals. Their job is to die. Most of the generals you and I have ever heard of in the span of our lives in our countries should be in the Hague, but since the system of international justice those generals helped to create and enforce is designed to protect them from punishment for their very real crimes, the best measure of justice we can hope for them is going to be extrajudicial. If you don’t long for that measure of justice – a rocket, a car bomb, poison perhaps, or just a knife in a theatre box – for all the things these monsters have done, I fear for your moral framework. Far from feeling sympathy for generals, or believing they deserve a fair trial, I wish for whatever measure of justice can be meted out to them, and am sad it won’t be. I hope that’s clear! As for the Soviet generals under discussion here, who at least did not abet genocide, I still have no sympathy, even for those I clearly admire. They joined the army, climbed its spiky pole, and voluntarily took and remained in a job that has as its primary characteristic the disposal of tens, hundreds or thousands of lives for abstract tactical purposes that may or may not be realized. I have sympathy in some limited cases for conscripts[2], and for soldiers who volunteered to serve in a desperate war of self defense that they knew would probably kill them, but I have none for the generals whose decisions got those soldiers killed. These Soviet generals stood to hold thousands or even millions of lives in the palm of their hand, and routinely made decisions that saw thousands of men die for nothing. They expected their soldiers to die, and I expect nothing less of them. If *their* leaders decided to kill *them* for abstract strategic goals that might not be realized, that’s just not a matter of any concern to me. To put it bluntly: if you don’t want to be fed to the meat-grinder for geopolitical reasons, don’t become the boss of the meat-grinder.

    And no, saying the Soviet context in 1936 doesn’t justify any of this doesn’t cut it: They saved Europe from itself, they saved 120 million people from annihilation, they did what no western government or soldier was willing to do. They faced a context that we do not, and I don’t feel like judging them by the comfortable standards of a society that claims to eschew torture in the justice system but won’t punish its generals for aiding, abetting, and in many cases commissioning torture and genocide. I hope that’s clear! If you need me to say more clearly that I think some people should be executed without a fair trial, feel free to ask again!

    Finally I will add, when you imagine that these generals were killed for no good reason in show trials, implicitly buying into the line that 90 years of anti-communist historians tell you, that you should consider that this behavior was not consistent with Stalin’s character, which generally was too lenient. I would ask you now to consider that Stalin was a little too humanitarian for his time, a little too principled, and should possibly have thought of being harsher. I know this is hard for you to do so let me give you two examples. First, there is a passage in Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag Archipelago where he describes the “waves” of prisoners who were fed into the camp, and identifies these waves by particular characteristics that define them. They were not, he argues, random citizens, but were groups identified by Stalin and the leadership for repression. He lists them with the obvious intention that we the readers will feel sympathy for them, and will be horrified by their poor treatment. These include groups like White Russians, Ukrainian Nationalists, and Vlasov’s Russian Liberation Army soldiers. But when I read who these “waves” of prisoners are, I think that they are incredibly lucky to be getting “just” 10 years (or even life) in a Soviet prison camp. The White Russians fomented war against their government and committed atrocities, backed by Western money, all across the nation. The Ukrainian Nationalists collaborated with the Nazis, murdered thousands or 10s of thousands of Jews and Polish people, and ran an 8 year insurrection after the war during which they killed random members of collective farms and destroyed property. Vlasov and his men betrayed their nation to the most barbaric ideology in history just to save their own skins. There were no doubt many in the USSR – especially between 1942 and 1960 – who believed these men should be in a ditch, not a camp. That they were given the opportunity to live in a camp and the chance at rehabilitation is a remarkable act of clemency, and it may have been a mistake. Certainly a far more ruthless approach to the UPA would have paid dividends for Russia in the past 20 years! But from the simple perspective of justice, with many of these people Stalin erred on the side of humanitarianism: The UPA soldiers should have been buried in the ground of the camps they served, their names wiped from history, and to give them mere decades in a prison camp is a kindness *they* certainly never showed the men, women and children who they raped and slaughtered across Ukraine. This was a surprising act of clemency by Stalin. The second example is his treatment of his own son, who was captured by the Nazis. The Nazis tried to bargain with Stalin, offering to save his son’s life if he made certain concessions. He refused to even consider their terms, on the grounds that he should not extend to his own son any consideration that he would not extend to any other Red Army soldier. Do these seem like the actions of a man who killed generals over personal slights, as his western critics try to say he did in the show trials? I’m not trying to argue this man was a saint or that he did nothing wrong, but I think you should assess the show trials and his treatment of his generals against his actual record of governance and military strategy, and the behavior he himself displayed (e.g. not leaving Moscow as the Nazis approached, refusing to save his own son) rather than by the standards of some cheap western hacks who imbibed anti-communism from the moment they were born and would never have been able to publish a book or make a career for themselves if they had shown any sympathy to that ideology.

    None of this is an argument that the USSR made no mistakes or that Stalin was great. It’s a simple request for you to take off your blinkers and consider the possibility that things were happening that need to be assessed differently to the way most people have reported them to us over our lives.


    fn1: Please don’t do one of your pedantic asides where you give me the dictionary definition of a show, it won’t be enlightening for either of us.
    fn2: None, however, for Israeli conscripts or Vietnam-war era US conscripts

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