On Tuesday 26th May Japan’s COVID-19 state of emergency ended, five days earlier than expected and with deaths down to low double digits every day. The state of emergency was accompanied by a voluntary lockdown that started on 8th April for Tokyo and six other prefectures, extending to the rest of Japan a week later and ending in the rest of Japan a week before the lockdown ended in Tokyo. This means that the lockdown affected Tokyo for just 7.5 weeks, and the rest of Japan for about 6 weeks. At its peak the epidemic generated about 1200 cases in one day (on 17th April), dropping from 1200 to 30 in just 5 weeks.
In contrast, the UK essentially introduced its lockdown on 23rd March and is still slowly relaxing the lockdown. The UK lockdown was stricter than that in Japan, with enforceable restrictions on movement and activities[1], it involved the complete closure of many businesses, and it effectively lasted 3 weeks longer than Japan’s. At its peak the UK saw 8700 cases in one day (on 10th April, a week before Japan’s peak) and dropped much slower, only going below 2000 cases on 25th May – the same day Japan reached 30 cases. This is a quite remarkable difference in pace of decline: dropping by 97.5% in 5 weeks for Japan, compared to 75% in 6 weeks for the UK. These differences show very starkly when plotted, as I have done in Figure 1. This figure shows daily new cases in the two countries by day since the 10th confirmed case, using data obtained from the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health coronavirus tracker[2]. From this figure it is clear that Japan saw its 10th case much earlier than the UK (on 30th January compared to 24th February) yet experienced a much more gradual increase and a much more rapid decline than did the UK.
Why was Japan’s response to the coronavirus so much more effective than that of so many other high-income countries? In this post I will explore a little the key factors that affected the Japanese response, what made the numbers grow so slowly and why the lockdown was more effective than in many other countries. In particular I will compare Japan with the UK, as a model of the differences between an effective and an ineffective response.
A timeline of interventions
Japan saw its first case on the 16th January, compared to 31st January in the UK. However, Japan took action sooner and more aggressively. Here are some key actions and when they were taken by each country.
- Establish advisory group: 7th February in Japan (25 cases) vs. 2nd March in UK (40 cases)
- Introduce first action plan: 13th February in Japan (26 cases) vs. 3rd March in the UK (51 cases)
- Advise cancellation of major events: 20th February in Japan (94 cases) vs. 20th March in the UK (3983 cases!)
- Formation of specialist contact-tracing teams: 25th February in Japan (170 cases) vs. 13th February in the UK (<10 cases)
- Released anime schoolgirl campaign: 31st March in Japan (2248 cases) vs. never in the UK (265000 cases and counting)
The difference in public response to the issue of mass events is a key example of the quality of the response in the two countries. While the UK was faffing about with discussion about which responses to take, Japan was already canceling and closing events. My own work events began to be postponed in the last week of February, but so did major public events:
- J league (soccer) halted all games on 25th February (170 cases)
- Japan National Pro Baseball league held all preseason games without an audience from 26th February (189 cases)
- Japan boxing commission and pro-boxing association canceled or postponed all bouts from 26th February
- Rise kickboxing was canceled on 26th February
- Sumo was held without an audience from 8th March (502 cases) (5 days after Boris Johnson bragged about “shaking hands with everybody” (51 cases))
In contrast in the UK:
- An England-Wales Rugby match was held on 7th March with a live audience and the PM in attendance (206 cases)
- Premier league events were held on 8th March with a live audience (283 cases)
- Cheltenham races were held on 10th – 14th March (382 – 1140 cases)
- League one games were held on 10th March (382 cases)
- UEFA champions league games were held on 12th March (in Scotland) (456 cases)
The UEFA champions league match brought a large number of German fans to Scotland, and a week earlier I think Liverpool visited Spain and another team visited Italy, where the epidemic was already booming. These events had huge numbers of fans – 81,000 people attended the England-Wales rugby match, and many soccer games host tens of thousands of fans. In contrast, the only major event to be held in March in Japan that I know of, with an audience, was K1 on 22nd March, which attracted 6500 fans who were all given a mask at the door (and this event still attracted huge controversy and anger in Japan).
Because of the slow growth of the epidemic the lockdowns also happened at different stages of the epidemic. Japan’s lockdown came on 8th April, when there were 5120 cases; the UK’s, on the 23rd March, when the UK had reached 6600 cases and was already on a much more rapid upward trajectory. It took 4 days from the announcement of lockdown for the UK’s case load to double, whereas it took Japan 8 days. The next doubling took the UK another 4 days, and never happened for Japan.
Finally of course there is the attitude of the leadership: on 3rd March Sadiq Khan announced no risk of catching coronavirus on the London Underground, the same day that Boris Johnson was bragging about shaking everyone’s hand at a hospital (and thus caught coronavirus himself).
It should be clear from this that while in some cases the UK government acted with about the same speed as the Japanese government, in general the Japanese government acted when it had much lower numbers of cases than the UK, and implemented more far-reaching and aggressive strategies that were likely to have greater impact. But beyond basic actions on mass events and action plans, there was one additional major difference in the Japanese government’s response: case isolation.
Contact tracing and case isolation
From the very beginning of the epidemic, Japan introduced a system of “test, trace and isolate” that follows WHO guidelines for emerging infectious diseases. Under this system, once someone was identified as a likely COVID-19 case and tested positive, they were immediately moved to a nominated hospital into a special management ward designed for highly infectious diseases, to have their condition managed by specialist medical teams. This case isolation reduces the risk that they will infect their family, and prevents them from spreading the disease through basic daily functions like shopping if they live alone and cannot be helped by others. This strategy was also used in China and Vietnam, and it is a core part of the reason why the lockdowns in these countries were so much more effective than they were in the UK, USA or much of Europe. When a confirmed case of COVID-19 self-isolates at home they are highly likely to infect family or housemates, who will then continue to spread the virus amongst themselves and to others. This is particularly bad in cities with high levels of inequality like London, where essential workers live in cramped share houses and lack the resources to stop working even if infected. These people infect their housemates, who must continue working as bus drivers, cleaners, care workers or shop assistants, and cannot help but infect others. If the first case is quickly isolated, this reduces the risk that subsequent cases will be infected. As stressed by the WHO, case isolation is key to cracking this highly infectious virus. Case isolation early in the epidemic slows the growth of the epidemic and buys more time to scale up testing and other responses, while case isolation once the lockdown is in place helps to push down the number of infections more rapidly, reducing both the severity and length of the lockdown.
Case isolation was key to Japan’s successful management of this epidemic, but many people have suggested that the epidemic was controlled also because of cultural and social factors that make Japan more successful at managing infectious diseases. I do not think these played a major role in Japan’s response.
Japan’s “unique” social and cultural factors
Some have suggested that Japan’s culture of hygiene, its long-standing mask-wearing habits, and high quality public infrastructure might have played a role in slowing the growth of the epidemic. It is certainly true that Japanese people have a tradition of washing their hands when they get home (and gargling), wear masks when they are sick, and have remarkably clean and hygienic public spaces, with readily available public toilets throughout the country. The trains are super clean and stations are also very hygienic, and it is never difficult to find somewhere to wash your hands. Japanese people also don’t wear shoes in the house (and in some workplaces!) and often have a habit of changing out of “outside clothes” when they come home. But I think these cultural benefits need to be stacked against the many disadvantages of Japanese life: Japan’s trains are incredibly crowded, and everyone has to use them (unlike say California, which was much worse hit than Japan); Japanese shops and public accommodations in general are very cramped and crowded, so it is not possible to socially distance in e.g. supermarkets or public facilities; because Japan’s weather is generally awful and its insects are the worst things you have seen outside of anime specials, most of Japan’s restaurants and bars are highly enclosed and poorly ventilated; and Japanese homes are often very cramped and small. When viewed like this, Japan is a disease breeding facility, a veritable petri dish for a rapidly spreading and easily-transmissible disease. Japan’s population is also very much older than the UK’s, which should suggest further high rates of transmission, and from mid-February we have terrible hay fever which turns half the country into snot cannons. Not to mention the huge outdoor party that is held at the end of March, where everyone gets drunk and nobody socially distances. Japan’s work culture also does not support home working, in general, and everyone has to stamp documents by the hour and we still use fax machines, so I really don’t think that this is a strong environment to resist the disease. I think these social and cultural factors balance out to nothing in the end.
Differences in Personal Protective Equipment
I do not know what the general situation for PPE was in Japan, but certainly the hospital attached to my university, which is a major nominated infectious disease university, sent around a circular in mid-February describing our state of readiness, and at that time we had 230 days’ supply of COVID-rated gowns at the current infection rate, as well as ample stocks of all other PPE and plans in place to secure more. There was a shortage of masks for public use in March, which was over by April, but I do not get the impression that there was such a shortage in the designated hospitals. Japan also has a very large number of hospital beds per capita compared to other high-income countries, but this figure is misleading: most of these beds are for elderly care and not ICU, and in fact its ICU capacity is not particularly large. However, by keeping the new cases low and moving isolated patients to hotels once the hospitals became full, Japan managed to mostly avoid shortages of ICU beds (though it was touch and go for a week or two in Tokyo). I think in the Japanese hospital system the lack of ventilators and ICU beds would have become a major problem long before the country ran out of PPE.
Inequality and disease transmission
One way that Japan differs from a lot of other high-income countries is its relatively low levels of inequality. In particular it is possible for young people to live alone in Tokyo even if they do not have high incomes, which means share housing does not really exist here, and all the young people who move to the big cities for work mostly live by themselves where they cannot infect anyone. Although it is a very densely-populated country and houses are much smaller than in the UK, there is less overcrowding because housing is affordable and there is a lot of it. Most people can afford health care and have ready access to it (waiting times are not a thing here). This low inequality plays an important role in elderly care homes, where staff are better paid and treated than in the UK care sector, and less likely to move between facilities on zero-hour contracts as they do in the UK. There is a higher level of care paid to basic public facilities like hospitals, railway stations, public toilets and other facilities which ensures they are relatively hygienic, and cleaning staff here tend to be paid as part of a standard company structure rather than through zero-hours contracts, with good equipment and basic working rights. Also there is a much lower level of obesity here, and obesity is not as class-based, so there is less risk of transmission and serious illness through this risk factor. There is a very high level of smoking, which is a major risk factor for serious illness and death from COVID-19, but it is the only risk factor that is comparable to or higher than those in the UK. In general I think Japan’s low level of inequality helped in the battle against this disease, by preventing the country from developing communities where the disease would spread like wildfire, or having strata of the population (like young renters) at increased risk, or forcing increased risk onto the poor elderly as we saw in the UK.
A note on masks
I think masks are a distraction in the battle against this disease. I think most people don’t know how to wear them properly and use them in risky ways – touching them a lot, reusing them, wearing them too long, storing them unsafely, and generally treating them as part of their face rather than a protective barrier. I think that this can create a false sense of security which leads people to think that opening up the economy and dropping lockdown can be safely done because everyone is protected by masks. This is a dangerous mistake. That is not to say one shouldn’t wear them, but one should not see them as a solution to the more basic responsibility of social distancing and isolation, and one definitely should not drop one’s hand hygiene just because one is wearing a mask: hand hygiene is much more important for protecting against this disease. It’s worth remembering that on the days that Japan was seeing 300 or 500 or 1000 cases a day everyone was wearing masks, but somehow the disease was still spreading. They are not a panacaea, and if treated as an alternative to really effective social measures they may even be dangerously misleading.
Conclusion: Early, sensible action and strong case isolation are the key
Japan took an early, rapid response to the virus which saw it screening people at airports, educating the population, and implementing sensible measures early on in the epidemic to prevent the spread of the disease. The first measures at airports and in case isolation were taken early in February, major events were cancelled and gatherings suspended from mid- to late-February, and additional social distancing measures introduced in March. Throughout the growth of the epidemic the Japanese response focused on the WHO guideline of testing, tracing, and isolating, with case isolation a routine strategy when cases were confirmed. This case isolation slowed the growth of the epidemic and once lockdown was in place helped to crush it quickly. This in clear contrast to the countries experiencing a larger epidemic, which typically reacted slowly, introduced weak measures, and did not implement case isolation at all or until it was too late. Lockdowns with self-isolation will work, but as Figure 1 shows, they are much less effective, causing more economic damage and much slower epidemic decline, than lockdowns with case isolation.
Finally I should say I think Japan ended its lockdown a week early, when cases in Tokyo were still in the 10s, and we should have waited another week. I fear we will see a resurgence over the next month, and another lockdown required by summer if our contact tracing is not perfect. But it is much better to end your lockdown prematurely on 10 cases a day than on 2000 a day, which is where the UK is now!
fn1: With certain notably rare exceptions, of course…
fn2: I have had to do a little cleaning with the data, which contains some errors, and I think the JHSPH data doesn’t quite match that of national health bodies, but it is much more easily accessible, so that is the data I have used here. All case numbers are taken from that dataset, unless otherwise stated.
May 30, 2020 at 10:10 am
Something that has stuck in my mind for decades: I read a piece in a newspaper about John Brogden, then leader of the Liberal Party in New South Wales. He came from a disadvantaged background and, as sometimes happens in such cases, the journalist asked him about why, coming from such a background, he’d joined the Liberals rather than Labor. John Brogden said that Labor was about raising the floor while the Liberals were about raising the ceiling. You don’t have to agree with this description of the parties (or either of them) to grasp the idea of a contrast between policies which raise the floor and policies which raise the ceiling. I was struck by the fact that the published piece treated John Brogden’s explanation as if it were complete without any explanation of why he preferred raising the ceiling to raising the floor. I support raising the floor over raising the ceiling, for which preference, it seems to me, there is an obvious justification: raising the (metaphorical) floor has the potential to benefit everybody, whereas raising the (metaphorical) ceiling does not.
Reducing social inequality has the potential to benefit everybody; it should be aimed at. A less unequal society is a better one. Reducing the risk posed by pandemics is just one of the ways it’s better.
May 30, 2020 at 4:10 pm
One other important thing about centralised isolation in medical facilities is that it means that a Covid patient’s deterioration can be spotted in time. One of the big problems with the disease is the possibility of rapid worsening after a week or so, with the development of pneumonia/ARDS.
The initial model of self-isolation at home in the UK was that there was no need to tell any official/medical services. But there was then no monitoring of such self-isolated people: instead the reliance was on either the person themself or their household correctly spotting acute deterioration and calling for urgent help at that point. There was only very vague guidance about this and ARDS can cause confusion/drowsiness which makes you less likely to be able to get help.
Home isolation doesn’t have to be organised like this: Germany did regular checking of people in home isolation. But in the way it was implemented in the UK (and I suspect the US), it left a lot of people only calling for help when it was too late.
May 30, 2020 at 5:14 pm
J-D, this is very true. Singapore is the poster child for this: 95% of its new cases are in poor migrant workers who live in dormitories, earn very little money and probably have to work during lockdown. The entire country is closed and its economy slowly cratering because they can’t get this epidemic under control, and it almost certainly wouldn’t have happened if those poeple were not so terribly treated.
Magistraetmater, thanks for commenting. Yes, this is one of the good points of centralized isolation. A downside though is that it can increase the infection rate if tests used to identify positive people are poor quality (I discussed this here). I don’t think this has been a problem in Japan, but I think it might be a risk in the USA, where they seem to be a bit cavalier about testing. And you’re right: everything wrong with the UK’s response didn’t have to be like this…
Today when I woke up I discovered Japan had 68 cases yesterday and 22 in Tokyo. It appears that the loosening up of the lockdown before the deadline, and its early end across the rest of the country, has led to an immediate increase in cases. I’m going to make a prediction here: we are going to discover that the only way to control this disease is to do as China, Vietnam and NZ did, and use a lockdown to eradicate it. Get to 0 cases and control imports. Japan has some conditions for reimposing lockdown and my guess is we’ll be back in another emergency within a month.
June 1, 2020 at 2:56 pm
“Reducing social inequality has the potential to benefit everybody; it should be aimed at.”
You’re making an unstated assumption about starting conditions J-D. In instances of high inequality, reducing has the potential to benefit everyone. In instances of very low inequality, increasing the inequality similarly has the potential to benefit everyone.
The question is where you’re starting from – pretty clearly the US is a bad place in all sorts of ways (wealth, racism, guns, governance). Pretty much the best advice possible would be “Don’t start from there.”
By contrast, in Australia the question is what action can be best targetted to improve overall outcomes. And it’s more likely to give a response that targeted actions aimed at indigenous Australians or another populace in extreme circumstances (..g domestic violence) is going to get a better net outcome than a broad approach like “raise the minimum wage by $X/hr” or “tax the rich”. Even something blatantly supporting inequality like “Make sure that Atlassian remains in Australia at any cost” may be better than “Tax the shit outta those two guys.”
That said, 40% death taxes with a high cut (say >$10m) in is fine by me. Screw Bezo level intergenerational transfers. And include the primary residence in such taxes.
“I’m going to make a prediction here: we are going to discover that the only way to control this disease is to do as China, Vietnam and NZ did, and use a lockdown to eradicate it.”
Australia may provide a useful data point for you. We’ve have <20 cases a day for a while now. Parts appear to be pretty much virus free (e.g. ACT), but NSW and Vic (especially Vic) are just unable to finish the problem off. The question will be if it leads to a later explosion in numbers, a gradual stomping out or a long lingering burn.
June 1, 2020 at 3:05 pm
Paul I think 40% death taxes is a pretty big step towards reducing inequality, and might change the income distribution a lot. In modern liberal capitalist societies I think that might be considered radical. But probably it’s useless until we get a global agreement on tax havens and tax reduction, to stop movement between jurisdictions (it could be that a global agreement with a 5% tax is more effective!) but that’s just quibbling about means, isn’t it?
Some of the inequalities driving infectious disease can be fixed without any radical change to income distributions, however. Overcrowding is a big driver of these diseases, and can be fixed by changes to housing policy without necessarily heavily taxing anyone. This is really noticeable in Singapore, where all the growth of the disease is in intensely overcrowded settings. Better treatment of Singapore’s migrant workers would entail major changes to the way the country works and treats foreign workers, but wouldn’t necessarily require a big change in the current income distribution. In countries like the UK where overcrowding in share housing has a similar role the changes might be more complex (e.g. changes to negative gearing laws in Oz) but wouldn’t necessarily mean any radical changes in income distribution. They are, of course, politically more challenging than taxing the super rich because they affect middle class people.
Japan is also down around 20-40 cases a day now, and yes my fear is that cases like Japan, Australia and maybe South Korea show that you cannot open up while you have even one case (or perhaps more than a few) floating around. We’ll see if it’s a gradual stomping out, a lingering burn, or an explosion but my suspicion is that for diseases with greater than a certain amount of infectiousness and no vaccine there is no middle ground, and if you leave cases hanging around when you open up it’s just a question of how long before the whole thing goes bang.
June 1, 2020 at 5:53 pm
I can’t think of any reason to believe that.
Possibly, but those suggestions would reduce social inequality, not increase it.
Both of those are (a)silly ideas and (b)unlikely to have a significant effect either way on social inequality.
NB ‘Social inequality’ and ‘inequality in the distribution of income’ are not synonyms. Inequality in the distribution of income is a very important feature of social inequality but not the whole of it.
June 2, 2020 at 6:47 am
“I can’t think of any reason to believe that.”
That’d seem to be mostly of a failure of imagination on your part. If it helps, there have been a couple of revolutions aimed at overthrowing social movements that promoted maximum social equality.
And before you go to “But those movements weren’t true mvoements to increase social equality”, I refer you to to the ‘no true scotsman” fallacy.
June 2, 2020 at 8:09 am
Paul, I didn’t say anything about movements, one way or the other, nor did I did say anything, one way or the other, about ‘maximum social equality’. There is no such thing as maximum social equality: it’s a meaningless expression.
Your exact words earlier were: ‘In instances of very low inequality, increasing the inequality similarly has the potential to benefit everyone.’
What’s needed to validate that assertion is at least one example (preferably more) where:
(a) social inequality was very low;
(b) something was done that had the effect of increasing inequality;
(c) everybody benefitted.
You have indicated no such examples, and I don’t know of any.
I’m not sure what you mean but if, for example, it is something like ‘Equality has sometimes been used as a slogan by movements which had bad effects’, then that’s true but irrelevant to the point previously at issue. Maybe you don’t mean anything like that, though, I can’t tell for sure.
June 2, 2020 at 11:10 am
Paul, I’m sure I don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.
June 5, 2020 at 11:01 pm
@J-D
“And before you go to “But those movements weren’t true mvoements to increase social equality”, I refer you to to the ‘no true scotsman” fallacy.”
June 6, 2020 at 6:20 pm
I’m sure I don’t have a clue what you’re trying to say Paul!
June 8, 2020 at 9:01 am
I didn’t go ‘But those movements weren’t true movements to increase social equality’.
I went ‘You have indicated no examples in which: (a) social inequality was very low; (b) something was done that had the effect of increasing inequality; (c) everybody benefitted’.
That’s what I went before, and now I’ve gone it again, because you still haven’t indicated any such examples, and I still don’t know of any.
In fact, I’ll go one further, because I’ve realised that of (a), (b), and (c), I can go without (a).
So, I’ll go this: ‘You have indicated no examples in which: (1) something was done that had the effect of increasing inequality; (2) everybody benefitted.’
Do you want me to go that again, or do you have something else you want to go?
June 8, 2020 at 3:06 pm
1. Invention of farming
2. Growth of banking
3. Collapse of the Soviet Union
4. Creation of companies
5. Introduction of limited capitalism to China
6. Implementation of writing and bureaucracy allowing the organisation of larger social groups than tribes
Also, over long enough time frames, you find the same with the risk of the Roman Empire, British Empire and practically every other bunch of assholes who accumulated wealth then used that to improve their circumstances before the improvements were gradually transferred to teh broader populace. But let’s ignore those ones.
June 8, 2020 at 3:08 pm
Sorry, despite looking a computer created using advanced industrial techniques I forgot 7. industrialisation and 8. mass production.
June 9, 2020 at 8:49 pm
Perhaps I’m not understanding you Paul but I don’t think these things you list were “revolutions aimed at overthrowing social movements that promoted maximum social equality” and I don’t think they can necessarily be said to have “benefited everyone”. Some of them weren’t revolutions or social movements at all.
1. Invention of farming: I don’t think anyone knows much about the invention of farming, or what social pressures led to it or what it aimed to achieve, or even if it happened in just one place and time and arose for the same reasons. It’s perfectly possible that the development of farming arose from social pressures caused by inequitable distribution of food in pre-agricultural societies. I also don’t think it can be called a revolution or a social movement. Are you thinking of enclosure? Coz I don’t think the system it overthrew could be said to be “maximum equality”.
2. Growth of banking: Wikipedia says that the turning point in this industry was in 14th century Italy among the wealthy city-states. I can’t imagine anyone would describe them as being dominated by social movements aimed at maximum equality, or that banking itself overthrew anything.
3. Collapse of the Soviet Union: definitely not something that left everyone better off.
4. Creation of companies: not a revolution, not really describable as a social movement, and with its origins in Ancient Rome hardly a thing that arose in a time of maximum social equality. You could be referring to mercantilism, but given that the great companies of mercantilism appear to have been created with the express goal of exploiting the new world I don’t think you could say they were a social movement aimed at overthrowing maximum equality or that everyone was better off.
5. Introduction of limited capitalism to China: I guess you could have a point here but since the government did it, I find it hard to believe that you would call this a social movement aimed at overthrowing a social movement aimed at maximum equality – was the Chinese government trying to overthrow itself? Weird.
6. Implementation of writing and bureaucracy: I’m seeing a theme here in which you seem to think that tribes are social movements promoting maximum equality. Is this what you’re banging on about here? Seems a little bit of a simplistic view of history (is it a Marxist interpretation of history!?) I also find it hard to believe that this is a social movement or that it existed to overthrow a movement of maximum equality – it arose in multiple separate cultures around the world over a 1000 year time span so it seems hard to believe it had a coherent underlying purpose or goal. And how do we know it made everyone better off? That seems like supposition. Also surely in some of those states (e.g. Rome) it played an important role in managing slaves? not sure I’d want to credit it with making everyone better off in that case.
June 9, 2020 at 9:57 pm
Over long enough time frames, we’re all dead. Making people worse off now in a way that results in other people being better off centuries in the future doesn’t count as everybody benefitting.
Like faustusnotes, I’m not sure that any of the examples you indicated are cases in which everybody benefitted. I’m not saying you’re definitely wrong about all of them, I don’t have enough information for that, but you’re the one who is citing them as examples, and to make your case you’ve got to do more than just mention a historical event and then assert that everybody benefitted from it. What’s your basis for concluding that everybody benefitted from any one of the examples you mention?
June 10, 2020 at 10:06 pm
“I also don’t think it can be called a revolution…”
Then you’re just wrong :-). Farming was a revolution, re: “a dramatic and wide-reaching change in conditions, attitudes, or operation.”
Your belief that revolution occurs at the point of a gun is something you’ll need to look inside yourself to understand.
“Coz I don’t think the system it overthrew could be said to be “maximum equality”.”
Everyone had to hunt for their own food or starve? How could it be more equal in the distribution of “status, rights, or opportunities” [1]?
“Growth of banking”
Again, you’re thinking of revolution as “a thing Fautus likes” instead of “a dramatic and wide-reaching change in conditions, attitudes, or operation.”
Banking was a revolution in the way money was used. Not all revolutions need people up against walls. The internet was revolutionary, but zero people died for it.
“Collapse of the Soviet Union: definitely not something that left everyone better off.”
Interesting. I did claim that “In instances of very low inequality, increasing the inequality similarly has the potential to benefit everyone” which could be interpreted as saying “it should leave everyone better off”.
But is that the hill you want to die on for equality? Because it’s kinda trival to prove that maximising equality leaves rich bastards worse off. Are you sure you want to take the countervailing absolute rather than stiving for understanding? [2]
I’m happy to debate the absolutes, but that’s a fundamentally conservative argument. So, how about we label you the Torys and me the Revolutionaries when we do so? Cool?
Or, alternatively if you want, you can just argue “The USSR was goddam Wonderland.” But, I’m not going to engage in that line of discussion there are serious examinations of it that you can freely access and I’ll defer to them. Please post your comments to forums under the title “Bring back the USSR! Ukraine was better under Putin’s heel the first time, the second is a let down.”
“Creation of companies: not a revolution, not really describable as a social movement”
1. Re revolution: Wrong, see above.
2. Re: Social movement: Why not? It fails to pass the “Faustus putting people up against the wall” test? I’m willing to accept this on the condition that #BlackLivesMatters also fails until Trump or Mitch are dead. Someday you’re going o need to accept that something you don’t like can reference words you do without needing your judgement on reddit.com/r/gatekeeping.
“”social movement aimed at overthrowing a social movement aimed at maximum equality – was the Chinese government trying to overthrow itself? Weird.
Aww, snap. I guess you got me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. In that case any response to BlackLivesMatter or indigenous disadvantage or poverty or anything else legislated by govnerment also fails the test of a social movement that seeks to reduce poverty. Damn. You win, I guess. Tell the protesters to go home or burn more.
” I’m seeing a theme here in which you seem to think that tribes are social movements promoting maximum equality.”
Well, you’re working hard for maximum misreading of the person you’re speaking to. So, you know. internet points for you I guesss. Go Go DISCUSSION AND EMPATHY!
But in rebutal. No. Social movements are concepts. What qualifies as a social movement? Well, the obvious answer is “Whatever passed the faustus ‘Put that asshole up against a wall and take his stuff’ test.” The subtler answer is “What do you think is a social movement?” followed by “Why?” then “Do you really need to police this?”
“Over long enough time frames, we’re all dead.”
This is facious and dismissive. But OK, J-D then can you please define the precise time frame that you want to use on all the examples given? But I’m going to require a single answer that can be applied to all scenarios [3] . So have fun with the research.
Personally, I’m willing to bet there is a precise timeframe (e.g. 4 years, 4 months, 2 days) that works to provide you “victory” for the examples given. But I’ll settle for you trading effort for internet debate points. Go sick or go home.
“Making people worse off now in a way that results in other people being better off centuries in the future doesn’t count as everybody benefitting.”
Farming is making “people being better off centuries in the future”? OK. You’re not on my team after a zombie-pocalyse. You can go join the Republican “Burn it all down” team.
“I’m not sure that any of the examples you indicated are cases in which everybody benefitted.”
I appreciate your firm belief that the modern world was pre-ordained. But I don’t believe in the indivisible hand of history the way you do. In my world, the Dr Who approach to historical determinism doesn’t apply. I try to assess “Did action X have outcome Y or was Y going to happen anyway?” But, simultaneously, I endorse the belief “You do you”. So go for it.
Oh. One thing. “What’s your basis for concluding”
So. What’s your criteria. I don’t believe you should be judged by standards that I hold. But I do believe you should express your own beliefs and be judged by them. So please state the level of evidence required that will be applied to any futre statements that I feel like judging you on.
Thanks.
[1] https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBAU874AU874&sxsrf=ALeKk00CqqdllwbKLWS_BPSifc8HJw2mEg%3A1591792006399&ei=htHgXsfxF8Sl9QOjvJngBg&q=equality+definition&oq=equality+definition&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIPCAAQsQMQFBCHAhBGEPkBMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAHEB4yBggAEAcQHjICCAAyBggAEAcQHjIGCAAQBxAeMgYIABAHEB46BAgAEEdQvEhYzFJgx1hoAHAEeACAAegBiAHiDJIBBTAuNy4ymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwjHzOOon_fpAhXEUn0KHSNeBmwQ4dUDCAw&uact=5
[2] I understand from Japanese shonen anime (Naruto, Black Clover) that striving understanding each other in the face of differences is the real battle. But if you think battle is the real of battle, knock yourself out.
[3] To help clarify: Yes. I am going to save your answer down to a notepad. Afterward I’m going to insist anything you labelled “good” be ignored till the date comes round or point out that, as of that date, it was regarded as bad. In the interest of fairness, I’ll even concede the ones that are good on that particular date – but we both know that judgement dates don’t work like that so personally I’d feel pissed off if someone held this kinda bullshit approach over my head. Kinda like how I dislike your attempt to do it now.
June 10, 2020 at 10:15 pm
You know, having posted that, I’ve realised there are three schools of thought on internet debate.
1. Shonen approach: Disagreements (fights) are a way we expres ourselves to each other. It’s a struggle to understand each other in a flawed world, but a worthwhile one.
2. My opponents are assholes: Only by destroying the disembodied opponent on the other side of a screen can we finally quell the pain within us.
3. Debating is for assholes: Everyone on the internet who induges in this shit is an asshole.
I’d typically leaned towards 1 school. I think that’s demonstrated by my willingness to listen to others and own a loss in a debate. But frankly the internet in general and this site in particular (the only one i post on) makes me lean towards option 3. I’d like to defend my hope in anything other than option 2 or 3 by disengaging. Don’t bother replying here.
Faustus, you’ve got my email if you need to contact me.
Bye.
June 11, 2020 at 7:45 am
I believe that I have not yet arrived at a conclusion about what is the answer to the question ‘Did everybody benefit from the invention of farming?’ I believe that you have arrived at the conclusion that the answer is ‘Yes’. I believe I would like to know how you arrived at that conclusion. I believe that it’s not clear whether you would like to enlighten me. I believe that it’s not clear what might make you want not to answer me. I believe that you can judge me by these beliefs if you want to, or at any rate that it’s certainly not within my power to restrain you from judging me.
June 11, 2020 at 10:44 am
J-D I don’t think Paul is going to be responding and it’s a bit of a threadjack anyway, but I’ll respond to a few points he raised.
First we have to distinguish between revolutions, evolutions and reforms. Since we don’t know much about the development of agriculture we can’t say that it was a revolution, since it didn’t happen in a confined period of time. It was more likely a slow evolution of technologies and practices and social reorganization, probably, and counts more as a reform. Also Paul seems to think that pre-agricultural societies were characterized by some Lockeian state of nature, in which “Everyone had to hunt for their own food or starve”, which if true would I guess be a form of equality. But what we know of pre-agricultural societies is that a) most food was from gathering not hunting b) food production was an organized social activity not an individual one and c) resources obtained from social activities were shared according to social processes, which were not necessarily equitable. It’s likely there were divisions of castes or classes of some kind (Marx would sneer at the use of the word “class” here but I can’t think of a more apt one) and also divisions along gender lines, and they may have owned slaves. So I don’t think they can be characterized as maximum equality societies. So the whole thing falls apart on multiple levels.
For similar reasons banking, the development of companies and bureaucracies, these are all slow evolutions over generations or even centuries, and they did not happen in societies with high levels of equality (banking was concretized in 14th century Italy!) and they didn’t make everyone better off – the indigenous societies exploited by the East India Company weren’t better off, and neither were the Jewish communities ground up under the Nazi bureaucracy. So no.
The introduction of market systems into China was a Dengist reform, introduced by the head of the communist party, that did not fundamentally revolutionize Chinese society. It is also questionable whether it was happening in a society of maximum equality (the gap between peasants and urban centres was still very large in China in the 1970s). Deng himself called them “reforms”.
The collapse of the Soviet Union led to a massive increase in mortality and decrease in life expectancy in men, and also caused chaos and poverty in the regions. People still don’t properly understand what happened to men’s health in the 10 years after the fall of the wall but whatever it was it was pretty bad. It is also generally accepted that the predatory capitalism and corruption of that era unleashed a lot of troubles in Russian society that are still being felt. I don’t think it’s right to say everyone was better off, even if it is right to say the Soviet Union should have ended. These two things are not mutually exclusive.
That is all i think.
June 12, 2020 at 12:07 pm
re farming – the evidence is that the transition (which typically took a few centuries) left most people worse off – shorter, with more diseases and higher mortality (the data is from skeletons, and is pretty robust). The pay-off was there were many more people, and they could erect more complex societies – so it was the foundation for modernity. Also, and on average. life was less violent – killing each other was a common pastime among foragers (note that is is an average – agricultural societies can practice mass violence, and so kill lots at one time, but there is less low-level feuding).
The time-frame for ordinary people to enjoy as much leisure and as varied and healthy a diet as foragers? Many millennia.
Foragers typically enjoy a high level of equality, which they work hard to maintain. Those who push the boundary are warned and then killed (see eg Christopher Boehm’s Hierarchy in the Forest) – but there is still stratification – men above women, adults above children.
BTW, as we are not in the US, I prefer ‘arsehole’.
June 12, 2020 at 1:26 pm
Peter T, I have also read hints to this effect, and seen that some scholars think the development of agriculture was a mistake. It’s not clear to me that it was done with any social purpose in mind, but if it was it also seems fairly likely that it could have been to increase equality, or to ensure that some people could stop foraging and do other things without starving. I don’t think we’re in a position to judge the purpose and motivation of the development of agriculture, or its social effects. We can study modern hunter-gatherer societies but we can’t watch the development of agriculture in these societies. So I don’t think we can judge. While we might be able to ascertain some facts about how and when it happened and its physical consequences, I think anything else is probably just speculation.
June 13, 2020 at 9:26 am
faustus – we could observe societies near the transition. NW Pacific coast Amerindians, for instance, had a high degree of social differentiation (hereditary chiefs, war rather than raids, slaves), based on abundant resources (salmon, marine mammals). Some aboriginal societies had selectively cultivated wild grasses to the point that they were close to grains. The full move only took place in a few core areas (Egypt, Iraq, Thailand, Indus valley, north China, coastal Peru, Mexico, New Guinea Highlands), so seems to require some combination of an abundant particular kind of resource, constriction and some social configuration (religious centres figure largely).
Without competition from agriculturalists, people go be being foragers – they were most of the world most of the time.
June 14, 2020 at 9:29 am
In the same spirit, I’m going to respond to a few specific points that you raised, but first I’m just going to repeat my general point, which is this:
I don’t know of any instances in which a change that increased social inequality made everybody better off.
The reason I am making that general point is that I asserted earlier that reducing social inequality has the potential to benefit everybody, and Paul asserted in response that at least in some instances it’s possible for increasing social inequality to benefit everybody. So if Paul could have produced examples in which an increase in social inequality benefitted everybody (or if anybody else could do so), they would have constituted solid grounds for me to rethink my attitude.
Therefore, for my purposes it’s not critical whether the change was revolutionary, and it’s also not critical whether it was intentional.
However, it is critical, for my purposes to know (a) whether the transition to agricultural societies increased inequality and (b) whether it benefitted everybody; and similarly for the other examples Paul offered, or for any other examples anybody might offer.
Now, to the specific points I wanted to respond to.
Obviously we have no written records of conditions before the first development of agriculture, whenever that was, more than ten thousand years ago. However, we do have contemporary written accounts (whatever their limitations, and obviously they had them) describing human groups that didn’t use agriculture. Again obviously, all of those groups had some contact with groups with more sophisticated technologies, which must have influenced them to some extent, however minor. Still, for what it’s worth, those observations suggest the following: no class or caste systems; no slavery. It’s not hard to figure explanations for these observations, which I can go into if you’re interested, and those explanations suggest that the chance that either slavery or class/caste systems existed before the development of agriculture is negligible, with the possible exception of rare situations with exceptionally rich supplies of natural resources (such as the case mentioned by Peter Thomson of the Pacific northwest of North America). However the absence of class or caste systems and the absence of slavery are not the same thing as total social equality: there could still be, and there were, and they could easily have been universal phenomena, gender-based social inequality and age-based social inequality (also as mentioned by Peter Thomson).
June 14, 2020 at 10:40 am
To amplify a bit – one consistent archaeological sign of a full transition to agriculture is that people become smaller, less healthy and on average have shorter lives (this is from extensive skeletal evidence). This persisted until modern times – it is a standard narrative of first contacts that the natives were taller and better-looking than the arriving Europeans – you can see this in the early photographs in Australian country museums – tall, healthy aborigines beside weedy whites.
One could argue that we are better off now, what with i-phones and warm homes and so on. You could be right. But 10,000 years is a long time to wait.
May 23, 2021 at 2:54 pm
Interested in an update on the Japan situation – or is it just too depressing?