Over the past few years I’ve looked at a lot of the probabilistic and statistical aspects of specific game designs, from the Japanese game Double Cross 3 to Pathfinder, including comparing different systems and providing some general notes on dice pools. I’ve also played various amounts of World of Darkness, Iron Kingdoms, D&D, Warhammer 2 and 3, and some Japanese systems, that all have quite diverse systems. Given this experience and the analytical background, it seems reasonable to start drawing it all together to ponder what make for some good basic principles of RPG system design. I don’t mean here the ineffable substance of a good RPG, rather I mean the kind of basic mechanical details that can make or break a system for long term play, regardless of its world-building, background and design. For example, I think Shadowrun might be broken in its basic form, to the extent that people who try playing it for any length of time get exasperated, and this might explain why every gaming company that handles Shadowrun seems to go bust.
So, here is a brief list of what I think might be some important principles to use in the development of games. Of course they’re all just my opinion, which comes with the usual disclaimers. Have at ’em in comments if you think any are egregiously bad!
- Dice pools are fun: everyone likes rolling handfuls of dice, and the weighty feeling of a big hand of dice before a big attack really makes you feel viscerally there, in comparison to a single d20
- Big or complex dice pools suck: Big dice pools can really slow down the construction and counting parts of rolling a skill check, but on top of this they are basically constructing a binomial distribution, and with more than a couple of trials (dice) in a binomial distribution, it’s extremely hard to get very low numbers of successes. So large and complex dice pools need to be limited, or reserved for super-special attacks
- Attacks should use a single roll: Having opposed skill checks in combat means doubling the number of rolls, and really slows things down. Having cast around through a lot of different systems, I have to say that the saving throw mechanism of D&D is really effective, because it reduces the attack to one roll and it makes the PC the agent of their own demise or survival when someone attacks them. On the other hand, rolling to hit and then rolling to damage seems terribly inefficient
- Where possible, the PC should be the agent of the check: that is, if there is a choice in the rules where the GM could roll to affect the PC, or the PC could roll to avoid being affected by the GM, the latter choice is better. See my note above on saving throws.
- Efficiency of resolution is important: the less rolls, counts and general faffs, the better.
- Probability distributions should be intuitively understandable: or at least, explainable in the rules – and estimates of the effect of changes to the dice system (bonuses, extra dice, etc.) should be explained so GMs can understand how to handle challenges
- Skill should affect defense: so many games (D&D and World of Darkness as immediate examples) don’t incorporate the PC’s skills into defense at all, or much. In both games, armour and attributes are the entire determinant of your defense. This is just silly. Attributes alone should not determine how well you survive.
- Attributes should never be double-counted: In Warhammer 3, Toughness determines your hit points and acts as soak in combat; in D&D strength determines your chance to hit and is then added again to your damage. In both cases this means that your attribute is being given twice the weight in a crucial challenge. This should be avoided.
- Fatigue and resource-management add risk and fun: Fighting and running and being blown up are exhausting, and so is casting spells; a mechanism for incorporating this into how your PCs decide what to do next is important. Most games have this (even D&D’s spells-per-day mechanism is basically a fatigue mechanism, if a somewhat blunt one), and I would argue that where possible adding elements of randomness to this mechanism really makes the player’s task interesting. But …
- Resource-management should not be time-consuming: this is a big problem of Warhammer 3, which combined fatigue management with cool-downs and power points. Too much!
- The PCs should have a game-breaker: we’re heroes after all. Edge, Fate, Feat points, Fortune … many games have this property, and it’s really useful both as a circuit-breaker for times when the GM completely miscalculates adversaries, and as ways for players to escape from disastrous scenarios, and to add heroism to the game
- Skills should be broad, simple and accessible: The path of Maximum Skill Diversity laid out in Pathfinder is not a good path. The simplification and generalization of skills laid out in Warhammer 3 is the way to go.
- Wizards should have utility magic: the 13th Age/D&D 4th Edition idea of reducing magic to just another kind of weapon is really a fun-killer. The AD&D list of millions of useless spells that you one day find yourself really needing is a much more fun and enjoyable way of being a wizard. It’s telling that D&D 5th Edition has resurrected this.
- Character classes and levels are fun: I don’t know why, they just are. Anyone who claims they didn’t like the beautifully drawn and elaborate career section of Warhammer 2 is lying. Sure, diversity should be possible within careers but there should be distinction between careers and clarity in their separate roles (something that, for example, doesn’t seem to actually be a strong point of Iron Kingdoms despite its huge range of careers). At higher levels characters should really rock in the main roles of their class
- Bards suck: they just do. Social skills should be important in games, but elevating them to a central class trait really should be reserved for very specialized game settings. Bards suck in Rolemaster, they suck in D&D, they suck in 13th Age and they suck in Iron Kingdoms. Don’t play a bard.
- Magic should be powerful: John Micksen, my current World of Darkness Mage, is awesome, but mainly because he is cleverly combining 4 ranks in life magic and 3 ranks in fate magic with some serious physical prowess and a +5 magic sword (Excalibur, in fact!) to get his 21 dice of awesome. Most of the spells in the Mage book suck, and if you made the mistake of playing a mage who specializes in Prime and Spirit… well, basically you’re doomed, and everyone is going to think you’re a loser. Mages should be powerful and their powers – which in every system seem to come with risk for no apparent justifiable reason – should be something that others are afraid of. You’ll never meet a World of Darkness group who yell “get the mage first!” What’s the point of that?
- Death spirals are important: PCs should be aware that the longer they are in a battle, the more risky it gets for them. They should be afraid of every wound, and should be willing to consider withdrawal from combat rather than continuing, before the TPK. Death spirals are an excellent way to achieve this combination of caution and ultra-violence. Getting hit hurts, and players should be subjected to a mechanism that reminds them of that.
I don’t know if any game can live up to all these principles, though it’s possible a simplified version of Shadowrun might cut it, and some aspects of the simplified Warhammer 3 I used recently came close (though ultimately that system remains irretrievably broken). Is there any system that meets all of these principles?
September 2, 2014 at 7:28 pm
All fair points. We eventually settled on a combat system that starts with a base percentile chance to hit, variously modified, and then goes to a d20 roll to kill if successful. So every so often a really powerful character gets wasted by a lucky newbie. It keeps the maxim that combat is dangerous in front of everyone, and so concentrated attention on maximising the initial advantage by whatever sneaky means can be devised.
September 2, 2014 at 9:13 pm
“Bards suck: they just do. Social skills should be important in games, but elevating them to a central class trait really should be reserved for very specialized game settings. Bards suck in Rolemaster, they suck in D&D, they suck in 13th Age and they suck in Iron Kingdoms. Don’t play a bard.”
The issue here is management of social interactions between characters. The driver behind that is the concept that of player disempowerment when someone else gets to play/control their character.
Look at D&D 3e where a sufficiently high rolls can make Elminster dispell all his magic and top himself. You’re then faced with what to do when this power turns on a PC – do you accept that diplomacy is the god skill, or are PCs just unusually bloody minded?
The Exalted 2e social combat system provides a mechanism for influencing other characters that in theory should apply well enough for PCs and NPCs, but between players hatred of being controlled and the fact that physical and social combat drew on the same resource pools [1] it’s a sub-optimal combat strategy to talk to someone. Which means the entire thing ends up relying on good will rather than good rules and good examples. [2]
So ideally your social interactions should have some teeth but also give players a solid bonus for engaging with them. The D&D 5e Inspiration rules or (I think?) the way that Fate gives you advantages for playing out negative influences on your PC are both good starts.
“Mages should be powerful and their powers – which in every system seem to come with risk for no apparent justifiable reason – should be something that others are afraid of.”
Hmm. This one actually varies. It depends on what setting vie you’re after. If you want to play in Call of Cthulhu then magic should be powerful and very risky. If you want to play something based on the anime Fairy Tail then magic is just another job and probably be flashy but low risk. Alternatively again you may want “Any sufficiently advances magic to be like technology” in which case you probably want low risk and low flashiness [3]
“Death spirals are important”
The Exalted 2e death spirals are wildly regarded as terrible by the fan base. Once you’re damaged the other person is more likely to hit you again and you have a reduced movement rate, so you’re less able to flee. Basically first hit is a game winning position. Once you’ve established that you may as well make it a one shot kill game.
I’d favour death spirals only if there were strong mechanisms to allow character escape. Options I’ve considered in the past are:
1. Every named character can inflict a death curse/strike – Basically the cost of actually killing someone is so high you’d prefer to let them live.
2. The setting enforces oaths made by the defeated – so if you beat someone and let them live, you can force them to not oppose you again. When paired with 1, it gives a strong incentive to get the bad guy to give an oath to just piss off. Plus explains why bad guys never pull the trigger on James Bond.
3. As characters get closer to death their damage increases – any rule that makes cornered rats more dangerous means everyone has less incentive to keep pushing unless they really need to. But if it only impacts damage (i.e. accuracy is sufficiently low) then it’s not a well structured incentive. [5]
4. Ensure that the narrative always provides a method for escape – but this just puts the onus on the DM
So I’ve got pretty mixed feelings on death spirals and I suspect that they are a matter of highly individual tastes. It’s unlikely you’ll get a random group with a single view. Which kinda makes it hard to choose the sweet spot to pitch a game at.
[1] Which means that losing a debate is a good warm up act for getting your head cut off. Which makes attacking first the optimal strategy.
[2] It also suffers from some poorly explained effects that led some portions of the fan base to accept powers that make you persuasive as basically morally neutral while powers that “unnaturally” altered your mind were regarded as mind rape. Imagining the arguments is left as an exercise to the reader.
[3] If you can’t come up with an alternate Earth setting idea where science is the flashy high risk option and magic is the sensible thing that led to the end of the dark ages then you’re not trying. It practically writes itself [4]
[4] And because of that I’m not sure it has anything interesting to say be default. So I wouldn’t advise just using the vanilla idea…
[5] And ultimately there is the risk that people will seek to be damaged just to get the damage bonus themselves. Anything that results in PCs stabbing themselves/each other prior to combat for a buff is pretty stupid.
September 3, 2014 at 12:25 pm
Good stuff. Seems like DCCRPG passes a lot of these criteria.
September 3, 2014 at 12:45 pm
I will reply to this, but it may take me some time to formulate as good a response as your thoughtful works deserve.
September 3, 2014 at 1:01 pm
Thanks Runeslinger!
Claytonian, I have a vague memory of looking at DCC and thinking it was too much like D&D – am I wrong?
Paul, re: Bards. My intention here was not to diss social mechanics, which I think are a good idea, but simply to say that Bards aren’t much good in adventure and combat because they’re too heavily focused on enchantment and persuasion. There’s only so much charm that works on a zombie. I say this out of experience, because I have played Bards in all the systems I listed and they were crap in all of them. As for social mechanics that can harm PCs – I think that’s a matter of judgment and group decisions. For example without a social mechanic of any kind, multiple editions of D&D enable wizards to charm or dominate other PCs. I have always ruled this out of any campaign I play in – along with a few other red lines (that apparently don’t include human sacrifice) – but if the group is happy with that kind of sly inter-player social domination, then I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with it in terms of system. Of course, if it’s easier to socially dominate someone than to cast a spell, you have a balance problem, but that’s a different issue (and actually a bard who could do that early on, for example by converting enemy minions to his own side, might actually be a fun PC to play). Perhaps the problem with Bards is that in the interests of “balance” they don’t have enough such powers early enough? Maybe Dominate should be a second level Bard spell …
Regarding death spirals, I think there are many different kinds of spiral, and one where becoming easier to hit is the central mechanic is perhaps a bad version. I think in general RPGs have privileged the PCs defensive ability over other attributes, and try not to let it be degraded. For example: it should be much easier for a D&D wizard to cast a spell that busts the straps and bindings on a fighter’s Full Plate armour than to give an ally a +9 bonus to hit (which is the equivalent effect); yet there is no such spell. Defensive powers tend to be off limits. My view of death spirals is that they should make it incrementally more difficult for PCs to act, and to be healed, but should come with options for reversing the spiral and game-breaking techniques to escape the spiral. That is, they force players to use up precious resources or suffer real damage, and reward good play and planning without loading the combat with a first-strike-wins mechanic, or a bad-first-round-equals-death type of feeling. There should also be residual consequences of combat, so that too much reckless fighting makes subsequent adventures harder. In a world with ready access to healing magic (i.e. not WFRP2), a straight hit points reduction is only really dangerous within the one battle; whereas a semi-permanent wound reminds you to look for more cunning ways to approach battle.
I’m not saying that designing a good death spiral is easy!
I agree with your point about magic in e.g. Cthulhu systems. I guess I should have specified that.
Maybe I should do a separate post on social combat systems …
September 3, 2014 at 1:52 pm
Hey, faustusnotes. Remember playing 4e in Yokohama?
DCC is like advanced 0D&D with the innovations of 3e to me. If you wanna play it online sometime, hit me up at claytonian at the gmails. Guarantee a funner time than 4e was.
Are you on g+ yet, BTW?
September 3, 2014 at 3:10 pm
I’ve got a problem in the group at the moment as I have three players, all of who are obsessed with levelling. I’m really wanting to play some BRP/Runequest fantasy which has far less levelling that Pathfinder, which is what we’re currently playing. We played some CoC and they really missed the advancement stuff. And I get it – levelling IS fun. Improving your character in clear ways IS fun. But it leads to terrible inflation of character power generally. I’d love to have a game where there was risk and improvement but not D&D like.
On DCC – I love it. But it was too random for my group…
September 3, 2014 at 10:17 pm
Isn’t the levelling problem more of a problem in D&D than elsewhere? In WFRP3 and 13th Age there are incremental gains, so people are always getting some small increase – gaining a level is kind of unimportant, though in WFRP3 it comes with the possibility of changing careers. Also, the power differentials in D&D can be particularly enticing – going from lvl 1 to lvl 2 is crucial, as is getting to 5th level for a mage, or whatever level gives you multiple attacks for a fighter. It would probably be less interesting in a system where this happened less.
Or your players are just greedy bastards whose PCs need to die?
September 4, 2014 at 10:55 am
It’s not greedy really – it makes perfect sense if one of the sources of fun in the game is planning character development. When we last played WFRP (2e) one player had the next 20 advances fully planned…
So the problem is that they find that process specifically interesting so a game that doesn’t feature it has less appeal. It might be that I’m a boring GM? Who knows! CoC was a particular problem as there was so little advancement.
September 4, 2014 at 11:48 pm
I like this post and agree with most of your above assertions. I have frequently wished for a “perfect” game, while simultaneously recognizing that my players would not find it perfect, and there would be essentially no support for said game.
Re: Social Systems
I like how Burning Wheel does this. The key thing is that the stakes are set up front, and everyone participating (GM/PC or PC/PC) agrees to the outcome. You then basically have a “combat” with the winner getting their way, but the “wounds” they take determine how much they need to compromise.
Re: Skills should be broad, simple and accessible
I think there is value in having a wide range of skills available, but I’m not sure how to balance this with keeping things from getting too ridiculous. D&D 4e had (IMO) too few skills, while games like GURPS have way too many. I feel like D&D 3e/PFRPG manages to get pretty close to the sweet spot as far as number of skills goes, but the varying utility of different skills makes the system as a whole pretty bad.
I will consider whether there are other design principles I would consider important.
September 5, 2014 at 12:03 am
Nick, I’m sure I can’t comment on what kind of GM you are, I bet you’re great! First rule of GMing is “blame the players,” after all … Did your players cut their teeth on D&D? In my experience people who grew up on D&D (like me) tend to have a high probability of being obssessed with leveling.
Fanguad, nice to see you back here. I like the sound of the Burning Wheel social system as you describe it. WFRP3 apparently has a whole social combat system that I assume also has “wounds”, but they never (as far as I know) laid out the rules for it. Weird. I guess it’s one of the hardest parts of a system (like grappling – what is it with grappling?)
I personally think D&D has too many skills. I think skills can be conceived broadly as active, passive and utility functions for a particular attribute. e.g. with dexterity you have missile (active), acrobatics (utility) and dodge (defense). Some attributes have no active or passive element, and some attributes have more than one utility (e.g. intelligence and dexterity) but in general if you think of it like that you don’t need much more than 3 times as many skills as you have attributes: 18 tops in D&D, I would say. You can put specialties on top of that, of course, but you don’t need more actual skills, I think.
Varying utility is a big issue throughout D&D. I think this is an important part of its completeness as a world-building game, despite its many flaws. By this I mean: when you read the AD&D spellbook (oh I do love the AD&D books!) you see all these completely pointless spells, that you know you will find a use for like once in an entire campaign (if you’re lucky). So why are they there? To build the sense of the world in which you adventure. The same with skills. This rich depth and variety of stuff is a large part of D&D’s appeal, I think. But in practical terms, the huge number of skills just bog you down (the spells, on the other hand, are awesome). YMMV, of course!
September 5, 2014 at 9:40 pm
Nice list Mr Faustus. I’ve not much to add to what’s already been said by the commenters. So let me just be an a-hole and point out where you’re wrong:
13th Age has utility magic. It’s a set of wizard spells called, funnily enough, “utility spells.”
But I didn’t bring this up just to be a nit-picker. Your comment about “reducing magic to just being a weapon” is a good one. If I were a wizard, I’d be learning non-combat spells a lot. Like animating a broom and getting to clean my room. So a gaming system that allowed this would be really cool…but easily abused. So many imaginative ways to use utility spells to get an advantage in combat. I think 13th Age realizes this, which is why utility spells cost a spell slot… which leads to the next problem: who’s gonna waste a spell slot on a utility spell?
September 5, 2014 at 10:59 pm
… and then some bastard comes along with facts about the rules of the game, and acts all hoity-toity because he knows like the truth and shit … get off my lawn, furikakekid!
In my defense, I have never played a mage in 13th Age, only a bard and a dickhead. So I don’t know nuthin’ bout these so-called “Utility spells.” However, I am familiar with the issue of spell slots and utility spells in D&D, and it’s not just the downside of D&D – it’s like a slap in the face. “Here’s a great book, full of awesome-sounding spells in small type, densely packed together so it feels like a real tome. Oh, and you can use one per day.” What are the chances you will choose Magic Mouth?
Also I’ve played D&D over so many years with so many different players and GMs, and I’ve seen a utility spell used in combat effectively once in all that time (Otiluke’s Resilient Sphere… it was awesome). I don’t think many utility spells actually get used in combat to get an advantage, and in 13th Age even less so because mages have actually useful combat powers. You could basically divide the AD&D spellbook into utility and combat spells, give mages unlimited utility spells, and it wouldn’t affect combat much at all …
September 6, 2014 at 9:20 pm
“You could basically divide the AD&D spellbook into utility and combat spells, give mages unlimited utility spells, and it wouldn’t affect combat much at all …”
And you could give the non-casters an ability called “Hold my coat”, so they have something to do too!
A problem with utility magic is that if you’ve sacrificed nothing to get it [1], then you have a an edge to grab screen time with that everyone else lacks.
That doesn’t matter in a game with reasonable adults who are out to have a collectively fun time. But designing a game to service a group that would have fun with pretty much any ruleset is a low bar to set yourself. Plus who amongst us hasn’t met a weirdo that you know will do something objectionable with limitless utility spells? Personally, I’d weaponise them.
[1] Be that sacrifice spell slots, skill points, proficiencies or whatever.
September 8, 2014 at 9:59 am
One of the reasons I hate 3/3.5/PF sorcerers and love all D&D wizards is the breadth of spells and the fact that they can have a spell in their book for just the right moment.
September 8, 2014 at 1:47 pm
Paul, why would I bother with a “hold my coat” ability when I can conjure unlimited invisible servants? In any case, the “be the mage’s meat shield” ability uses 0 skill points, so why would anyone complain?
It would be interesting to run an adventure where wizards had just one combat spell and an infinite array of utility spells, and see if they could actually use any of them effectively in combat …
Nick, I agree about sorcerers. And a lot of people seem to have this problem with the sorcerer, but I think the sorcerer reflects a response to complaints that wizards at low levels were incapable of contributing to combat in what is essentially a combat-heavy system. A better solution would have been to make wizards more flexible. I think the spell-slot system is unfixable though because it is designed to be limiting, and any revisions to it that make it less limiting are going to make it just seem fiddly. If, for example, you allowed wizards to have 5 spells at first level, you might as well just introduce power points and be done with it. I don’t know why the D&D designers have always been so wedded to the spell slot idea, I guess they just thought it was an essential part of D&D’s flavour, but to me it was always D&D’s most frustrating aspect.
April 11, 2015 at 3:04 am
I happened upon your article (a year later), and I couldn’t agree more. A+ post, would read again, especially this bit:
“Attributes should never be double-counted: In Warhammer 3, Toughness determines your hit points and acts as soak in combat; in D&D strength determines your chance to hit and is then added again to your damage. In both cases this means that your attribute is being given twice the weight in a crucial challenge. This should be avoided.”
Not to mention the classes and levels bit. I don’t know WHY it works, but it just does.
April 12, 2015 at 11:51 am
Thank you ValyrianSteel, I’m glad you liked it. I am currently mostly playing cyberpunk, which is such a ridiculously simple (and highly flawed) basic system that it almost makes you forget you are playing with a system at all. So I haven’t been putting much thought into system design at the moment, because I barely notice it – but I have been doing a lot of house ruling (because cyberpunk is broken). I think some of them are based on these principles – perhaps I’ll report on a few more of them soon.
April 17, 2015 at 5:57 am
I realize this is an old article, but I just encountered it. I also quite appreciate it. I’ve spent ages toying with RPG mechanics, and there are a number of points you mention that I find quite agreeable with my philosophy. Although some of that philosophy has changed over time (I used to like quite complicated systems with many skills and such, but find I’m leaning more towards simpler mechanisms, these days).
As regards specific points you mentioned:
Classes are something I’ve always had a love/hate relationship with, as well as levels. I like the idea of specialization, but don’t like super-specialization in classes. This is a hard balance to strike, I feel, and, for instance, I’ve never been a fan of, “you’re a wizard, so you can’t swing a sword,” though I understand the power-balance reasoning.
Some of my attempts with design have included the players rolling for everything (to attack, to defend themselves, etc) rather than the GM picking up dice. I also tend to favor a system where the attack roll also shows base damage, to which weapon damage is added. This is then balanced against armor, etc.
Magic: couldn’t agree more. I’ve been trying to come up with a system that lets the players create spells, without being overwhelmed with lists and things. It feels a hard situation.
Resource management: one system I’m experimenting with requires combatants to spend hit points to attack in combat. This represents fatigue and bruising, and models the idea that they are taking blows, just not major ones. If they wholly defend for a turn, they earn some HP back, Other than simple math of adding/subtracting HP (which can be handled with tokens), the only major bookkeeping should be keeping track of actual wounds (taking a blow, as opposed to exhaustion). And the chart of action costs could be easily memorized (basic attack 1 HP, stunt 2 HP, and so on).
Bards suck: true. An idea I had was to turn certain “social rank” classes (bard, paladin, ranger) into sort of “add on” classes, that would be put on top of a normal class. In 3rd edition Unearthed Arcana, there was an optional rule for making those classes into prestige classes, which I rather liked.
Anyway, I’ll quite rambling, but I found the blog very interesting!
April 25, 2015 at 1:45 pm
This needs to be gamed:
http://existentialcomics.com/