Following my analysis of success probabilities in Warhammer 3rd Edition (WFRP3) my next task is to analyze some of the major action cards, and identify whether fiddling with action cards brings any particular benefit to the game beyond different names for attacks. Before I do, I should note that there are only really a few different kinds of action cards:
- cards which appear to do more damage (like Thunderous Blow and Troll-feller Strike), usually with extra risk
- cards which enable the PC to use a different skill to attack with (e.g. Chink in the Armour, Nimble Strike), sometimes with less damage
- cards which induce some kind of combat-beneficial circumstance (e.g. Cut and Run) or cause an ongoing condition (Cruel Strike)
I think the second type of card are obviously worth having, since they enable PCs with poor combat traits to occasionally engage in melee attacks. The last kind of card may also be valuable, depending on the benefit they give the player or the condition they induce; but often the benefit is small or could be easily handled by sensible GMing (e.g. disengage for free). I think many of the effects given in these cards could probably be made available to PCs as talents with no loss of complexity or great unbalancing of the system. For example, Chink in the Armour enables a PC to use their Observation skill to attack. We could probably make this a talent available to a wizard if they want to spend the experience points on it, but it would be unlikely to unbalance the wizard class – no wizard can slug it out for more than a round in melee combat against anything nastier than an orc, and giving them the ability to use their observation skill to attack isn’t going to help if they can’t defend and don’t have armour or toughness worth speaking of.
My question is whether the first kind of card – the ones that supposedly enable fighters to do extra damage with savage attacks – is worth using. I investigated this by simulating 10000 implementations of the Basic Melee Attack and the Thunderous Blow action cards, for fighters with strength scores ranging from 3 to 6, in both reckless and conservative stance (one deep). I chose Thunderous Blow because it has side effects (fatigue) and (at least in reckless stance) is potentially savage, enabling the fighter to double their weapon damage if they roll well.
For all simulations in both stances for both cards I calculated the probability of successfully hitting and the average damage done (for all hits, not just successful hits). I then expressed the difference between the cards in two ways:
- The Odds Ratio of a successful hit for the Basic Melee Attack relative to the Thunderous Blow card; that is, the odds of hitting with basic melee divided by the odds for the Thunderous Blow. This should be greater than 1, since the Thunderous Blow card is slightly more difficult
- The difference in mean damage done between the two attacks; negative means the Basic Melee did less average damage, positive means more
For all attacks the fighter had a great weapon (7 damage), one fortune die and one rank of training; and the enemy had defense of 2, soak of 6; and was assumed to be parrying (+1 defense). Fatigues were calculated but are not shown here.
For all attribute scores (ranging from 3 to 6), the odds ratio of a successful hit was almost exactly 1 in reckless stance, and only slightly below 1 (usually between 0.9 and 0.95) for conservative stance. This indicates that the basic melee attack is basically just as likely to hit as the Thunderous Blow, though the Thunderous Blow supposedly does more damage. Figure 1 shows the difference in mean damage for reckless stance (black line) and conservative stance (red line). This means that in reckless stance Thunderous Blow does more damage (negative difference) on average, while in conservative stance it actually does less damage.
It is clear that the difference in damage in reckless stance is not great, and the benefit of hitting slightly more often in conservative stance does not make up for its weaker damage. In reckless stance the difference in damage across attribute values is not large, and probably not worth the risk of extra fatigues that are inevitably incurred in this stance with this card.
This analysis suggests that the fluff and crunch of having an extra combat card doesn’t deliver much benefit to the player. This card can be deployed once every three rounds for an extra 0.6 – 0.8 wounds of damage, at the risk of extra fatigue; or for less damage and the risk of delay in conservative stance. Is it worth spending an xp point on? As an alternative, this fighter could have spent that 1 xp to get this action card on either a fortune die for an attribute; an advanced parry card; an extra wound; or a talent that would deliver a constant and significant benefit in combat (talent cards can be pretty good). This card also requires you to give up a shield (it requires a two-handed weapon); it’s likely the benefits would be even smaller for similarly “reckless” and “beneficial” cards that applied to a one handed weapon.
This result is an example of several problems that I think arise from action cards:
- They constrain the GM’s creativity: in responding to the rich range of options provided by the dice pool system, the GM is able to come up with all sorts of interesting outcomes (these are hinted at on page 55 of the player’s handbook); however, the cards tie the outcome of dice rolls to strict effects that really in the end could just be summarized as “+1 damage” or “you get a free manoeuvre.” Thus a lot of effort goes into building dice pools for limited benefit
- They are unbalanced and unrated: most combat action cards have no rating but, for example, the Rapid Fire card is awesomely vicious – you can kill a great many PCs with that card – while the Thunderous Blow card does an extra point or two of damage and the two weapon cards are weak. Combat action cards need to be rated like magic cards, but they aren’t; and many are just fancy names on a small amount of additional damage
- They squeeze out talents: a PC can hold as many cards as they want, but can only slot two talents at a time. So players have to choose action cards of limited benefit, while missing out on talent cards that could really reward them
I think then that a better solution would be to give each character class a small number of usable actions, probably support action, that are deployed more like spells; for example the thief could have “assess the situation” which is actually really effective; while the fighter could have some kind of leadership or defense card. Then all other benefits gained with increasing xp could be expressed as talents that reflect bonuses, outcomes and new success lines that the PC can deploy in normal rolls. There could then be a system in which fighters are able to take a fatigue to add a fortune die whenever they want to any attack; and similar benefits for other classes in other ways. This would make PC management simpler without significantly affecting the total level of violence that any one PC was able to direct during battle. It would also remove the complexity of recharge tokens, and make character management enormously simpler. This can all be achieved by stripping WFRP3 down to a system like the (related) Star Wars system.
As it stands, WFRP3 has very poor management of difficulty levels and bad probability distributions, and the cards aren’t much value. I still really like the dice system, but I think the way difficulty is conceived and the probabilities of success that derive from this, as well as the action card system, could be significantly improved. From here I am going to begin developing methods to improve these aspects of the game.
October 11, 2013 at 8:58 pm
But… But… You TOLD me to take the thunderous blow card *sniff*
October 13, 2013 at 5:39 pm
Well, I wasn’t to know that the system was so broken was I …?
April 25, 2020 at 6:25 am
Just thinking out loud here:
I would argue that the benefit of the of the Thunderous Blow is it’s damage *potential*. Especially when someone has two or three expertise dice and is two or three levels into Reckless.
The most damage the Melee Strike with a two-handed weapon in the hands of someone with 5 Str is 7 + 2 + 5 = 14. Boons and Comets may produce critical hits. Impressive for sure and capable of one-shotting regular folks, but not an orc .
The same character with Thunderous Blow at max damage would be 7 + 7 + 5 = 19. With three expertise dice there is more than a 50% chance of triggering the extra damage. That’ll get an orc with one use of the action.
Compare those to a Minstrel I played for a couple years (Str 3 and one Expertise die) = 3 + 5 + 2 = 10 wounds, tops. Three rounds to get the orc if I max out the success….
I also think the extra criticals a skilled warrior can get with Thunderous Blow can really knock out anything with three or four wounds. It’s extremely likely decent fighter will be inflicting the two crits on the action with a decent chance for a third through the weapon.
Just my two cents and certainly appreciate the article is older!
Thanks for the blog.
April 26, 2020 at 11:20 am
Good point David, thanks for adding it. Since you’ve been playing for a while I’d like to ask you, how does WFRP 3 work at higher experience levels? I didn’t run it for more than maybe the first career change, so I never saw how it would pan out for super-experienced characters, but I got the impression that e.g. higher power monsters are not as dangerous as groups of weaker ones. Do you have anything to say on this? Does the card system bog it down at high levels? Is it more or less fun? Are high-level PCs very different to low level ones, and how?
April 28, 2020 at 6:25 am
I only played to rank 3 in our campaign (https://www.theorderofchaosgamers.com – Gustav the Minstrel/Dilettante/Bounty Hunter). The podcasts cover us going through the original Enemy Within Campaign converted to 3rd Ed. Prior to Paul recording these I think we played three of the box 3ed adventures as well with the same characters so some of the folks had a chances to get some levels under them.
When it comes to the big monsters, I can’t say for sure but I expect it’s the same as in DnD and a number of other games where action economy allows characters to overwhelm high hit point/high damage “boss” monsters. Best to saddle them up with some minions or lieutenants if that’s an issue. Our Troll Slayer was a beast and could tear down some of the guys we came across though in TEW campaign there aren’t many big bads.
As to the cards, there are a few. We played on Fantasy Grounds so the list could get big depending on the career, spell casters for example. I found I spent more points on skills, characteristics, and traits than on action cards. Making resilience, discipline, and charm checks happened more often so I gravitated that way instead of collecting to many combat actions. Maybe a couple of social and combat cards, but certainly not a dozen.
In my opinion, the cards weren’t the root of the issue. The rate of advancement in the rules makes for the real token/card bloat. I played, briefly as a Grey Wizard with Paul and another fellow who was GM’ing. Playing with the one xp per session had me collecting spells faster than I ever used them and I found that frustrating and the accumulation too fast.
In the game I’ve been running with the Barber Surgeon and Agent, I’ve been doing milestone progression and I’ve enjoyed that. The actions they do use have become iconic as they apply the same abilities to different situations. Both players were new to system and hadn’t gamed in years. I didn’t want them concerned about what to get for the next session and what would be useful. They have settled into some fantastic role play and when I do give out xp they have an excellent sense as to where they want to spend it.
Finally, I didn’t see a huge difference in the mid level game from the low level stuff. Sure, the Troll Slayer was tough but when the rest of us looked like we were going to fall he’d get worried. In my Bogenhafen game I’m sure it’s going to get political and will be pretty sand-boxy as I’m enjoying the craziness they try. They’re making all kinds of waves so I’ll have plenty of hook to latch onto.
If there is an issue I see it more in the points you outlined with the difficulty levels and determining the probabilities for appropriate challenges I wanted to present.
I’ll address you issue with point number one in your OP in regards to the cards restraining the GM’s creativity and how I employed those. I’m not a fast typer and have work to get back to 😉
Love the Covid posts, btw. Very sound presentation.
April 28, 2020 at 7:30 pm
David rank 3 is pretty high, and the way you tell it sounds like I imagined it – too many cards for the wizard, and big monsters going down quickly without backup. Good to hear you managed to keep it together to that high level – I guess the system must be robust enough against bloat to still be fun even when the choices multiply and the rules get trickier.
For my next campaign I’m planning to use Genesys, which is the generic system FFG built based on WFRP3 and Star Wars. I think it has a lot in common with WFRP 3 (just no cards and no stances) and I was concerned it might suffer the same problems at higher level. Good to see there’s a chance it works!
April 29, 2020 at 2:41 am
I have Genesys (and Star Wars) but have only read them. I thought about doing a conversion of Warhammer over as I was having the problems you pointed out with the opposed challenges. Without a doubt my favourite part of these systems are the dice. When someone rolls them at our table we all look to see what the result is and more importantly what dice got them there. I like the way Genesys uses the opponent’s characteristic and skill to create the challenge dice. The story dice as well are a neat feature I’d like to try.
April 29, 2020 at 9:30 am
Yes I quickly realized the biggest problem in WFRP 3 was the skill ratings. Not sure how much I’ll end up modifying genesys, or if my players will complain. We’ll see!
April 29, 2020 at 9:32 pm
What’s happened to your love of Corialis? Has another gaming system left you berefet?
April 29, 2020 at 11:00 pm
Haha no, Coriolis is still great but it will come to an end in the next few months and we’re planning the next campaign. I don’t want to use the same system again so I’m thinking high fantasy with the Genesys system.
May 3, 2020 at 9:43 am
In regards to the GM’s creativity being constrained I know where you’re coming from. Outside of the little flavour text there isn’t much else.
My advice, unless you have something that drives your narrative or reveals something new, is to let the players describe the effects.
Because the effects are so vague it really opens up how the players can flavour the results. The fatigue the Dockhand experiences looks different than the one suffered by the Agitator and because the players are in the skin it’s a chance to give them a bit of spotlight.
The way I played it when I GM’ing was to ask the questions: what does the extra damage look like or why did the roll give the character the extra maneuver. My favourite is when the player generates stress, specifically. Instead of narrating to them what they are feeling or just telling them to add to “add a couple of stress tokens I let them describe to me what they find unsettling or aggravating. “Why does discovering this thing out of place affect you so strongly?” The stuff the players come up with is almost always gold and way more flavourful than what I might have laid out. Pretty soon other players started watching the dice and asking where the effects were coming from. That’s RP gold. I wasn’t dictating, we were all wondering and being surprised.
The mechanical effects are laid bare by the dice and in the action card. Their descriptions need to fit inside those parameters but you can go big with those. What I found is that the players brought the things in from their backstories, character’s personalities, or the environment. These often snowballed through play and gave everyone at the table something to latch onto.
A lot of it goes against my controlling tendencies to lay out the world and try to cram in every detail so giving up the reigns to (especially) the players doesn’t come easy, at least at first.
I ended up bringing this style over to my D&D 5ed games, letting them describe their hits and damage and I couldn’t be happier. They know they didn’t kill the gnoll but they get to go nuts otherwise.
Lately, we’ve been taking a break from D&D and playing Action Movie World, a Powered By The Apocalypse game where players are movie actors in an 80’s action movie. When you let the players drive the descriptions the game is insanely fun and everyone at the table is participating and developing their narrative. The game has eleven basic moves, each character class has two more, and the given script grants another one. Players roll 2d6 add a stat. 10+ is an awesome success, 7-9 is a “you did it, but…, and a 6- is an “aww shit….”. The number of actions are comparable to WRFP, weapons are described by three words (deadly, area, messy, for example) but all do two damage. Sounds limiting but you end up being able to do so much. Also it drives home the concept of “playing to see what happens”.
Again, I’ve become a huge fan of letting my players come up with the elements. They would laugh and clap when chaos stars came up and insist that something happened. They often knew the perfect way to screw their own or the other’s characters over. Most times it was obvious to them and a lot worse than what i would have done.
In many ways I think 3ed is more of an indie RPG and like you said in one post, revolutionary.
I can’t wait to get back into it. Wish I’d found this blog earlier…
May 3, 2020 at 5:13 pm
That’s really useful advice David thank you! I’ll remember that when the campaign starts!! I try to give the players a chance to add to the world and story like that but you’re right, letting them interpret the dice will add a lot more!
May 4, 2020 at 4:30 am
It makes for a slower game but a much richer story, in my experience. Can’t wait to hear how your Genesys game goes.