Now the world’s population has reached 7 billion, there is some talk of the consequences for the planet, and as always happens at this time attention has turned to Japan’s ageing population. This is usually seen as a bad thing for Japan, with various predictions of population crash and economic catastrophe for the world’s second largest (or is it third now?) economy. There is also much talk of its “unsustainable” debt problems, because as the working population shrinks the government won’t be able to pay for its debts, and suggestions also that Japan won’t be able to maintain its industrial economy and maintain an ageing population. Japan is a particularly interesting example of how much myth and nonsense can swirl around a demographic issue, because a) people commenting on it usually know nothing about Japan and just imagine it’s the same as America and b) arguments based on demographic projections are inevitably wrong. People are talking now about Japan’s population crashing in 2050; I bet in the 1970s they were talking about the yellow peril taking over the world with their high birth rate. A lot can happen in 40 years.
I think most of the myth and nonsense about Japan is driven by a combination of ignorance and rambo-style muscular deficit terrorism, which I define as that kind of macho classical economics thinking which claims a population has to stay young and vigorous in order to service public debt; public debt is always wrong and “unsustainable,” and populations that don’t thrive (i.e. produce lots of babies) will be extinguished by their vigorous rivals. This is the kind of thinking which you see in right-wing blogs all the time, about how Europe-stan is being overwhelmed demographically by “arabs” and overwhelmed economically by the more vigorous [insert current region of concern here]. It’s a heady cocktail of TANSTAAFL, anti-government-spending (unless it’s defense), society-is-in-decline-because-of-the-women theologizing. In the case of debates about Japan, it’s also infused with a fair amount of condescension, ignorance, some nice stuff about how we treat our women better than they do, and classic liberal feminist failure to consider labour rights in analyzing social problems. It should be noted it’s a common theme across all the different political traditions (right, left, libertarian, commie, feminist, palaeocon, neocon) and it misses a few important points about Japan and demographics that I want to talk about here. I don’t, incidentally, claim that the linked article is an example of any of the flaws I described; I just linked it because it’s recent, and not in a conservative rag either.
I’ll briefly explain the real reason why Japan has a birthrate problem, then describe why I think there are many ways to save it, many of which are opportunities to improve Japan and the region. I think Japan is better placed to solve the problem than other countries, and I’ll explain why. I’ll also finish with some suggestions about why an ageing population is a good thing that we should all embrace, without descending into crude environmentalist tropes about having to reduce population.
Why Japan has a Birthrate Problem
Many reasons are suggested inside and outside Japan for its falling birthrates (currently 1.2 per woman according to the linked article). Some people think it’s to do with Japan’s oft-cited feminist failings; others think it’s because Japanese aren’t having sex as much as other countries (on the basis of a survey by durex[1], who make really shit condoms), often leavened with a bit of nudge-nudge-wink-wink those Asians aren’t as fecund as us type insinuations. Some think it’s a crisis in Japanese society to do with its alleged cruelty or lack of social connections (a common view of Japanese is that they are “like robots”). Some think it’s because the government has buried its head in the sand, that women can’t have kids and a career, etc.
In fact Japan has a good maternity leave scheme (I think it’s 3 months’ leave at 60% of your salary) paid for by social insurance; although it lacks capacity in private or public childcare companies, traditionally childcare for working women has been provided by their husband’s parents (with whom they live) and this is still standard practice. In fact, I know and have known women taking advantage of both arrangements. It’s my belief that work culture is founded on the assumption that older workers are living in an extended family setting where their personal arrangements are handled by elderly family members. The problem, rather, is that workplace culture here is extremely strict and unrelenting on both genders, and particularly the situation for young workers in their 20s is such that they delay marriage and childbirth until much later. This isn’t just because women can’t have a career and children (they can). It’s because for the first 10 years of your working life in Japan you can’t have a life and a career. Japanese seishain (the “cradle-to-grave” employees that are idealized in western leftist imaginings of Japan’s 70s corporate culture) are transferred by their company on a whim, often for no reason as a matter of policy. They are expected to work hideous amounts of overtime and then to drink with their colleagues after work; they are not allowed time off beyond a few days for any reason; and they may have to apologize and give presents if they miss days at work due to illness. But particularly, the transfer culture and the overtime culture have a pernicious effect on young people’s ability to form stable relationships, and so a huge proportion of Japanese youth are putting off family life until their thirties. If you don’t start family life till your thirties, you have less children and are more likely to miss the chance altogether. The result is a falling birthrate, and the solution is to change workplace culture. This is not a problem for women workers specifically: if a company won’t allow its male workers more than a few days off for their honeymoon, what chance are female employees going to have of 3 months? The problem is a generalized problem of workplace culture and it can’t be fixed by a feminist reorientation of maternity leave rights. It needs to be fixed by a complete change in the way Japan’s businesses operate.
Why Japan is well-placed to handle the problem
Compare Japan and the UK, which also has a declining birthrate problem. Japan has low taxes, relatively low female workforce participation, a low retirement age (60 in many companies), immigration rates well below the maximum level the people will tolerate, low inflation, and a massive industrial base. The UK has extremely high taxes (e.g. its VAT rate is 20%; Japan’s is 5%), quite high female workforce participation, is already increasing its retirement age, has immigration rates that are controversial to the majority of the population, high inflation, and an economy already heavily focused on services. The only thing going in its favour is a high unemployment rate (lots of unused labour). Both countries have high government debt (120% of GDP for Japan, about 70% for the UK, I think).
So Japan can easily adapt to a slowly declining working-age population by increasing taxes, getting more women into work, increasing the retirement age, increasing immigration and shifting from industry to services in the economy. Furthermore, if the government were to set strict rules on business activity to ensure more family-friendly workplaces, and these were to result in rising prices, the inflation rate would still be manageable (it’s currently very low). What, in comparison, can Britain do? Get it’s unemployed people working again. Good luck with that, Mr. Cameron …
Another way in which I think this problem is often misunderstood by commentators is that retired Japanese people do not drop out of the workforce, but instead become important parts of the unpaid or informal economy. They often work as farmers in small-holdings long into their 70s, while also providing important childcare and family support services to their children. I know someone working in Oita whose two children are essentially cared for by her parents-in-law; she doesn’t cook any meals during the week, and her parents also run a small mandarin orchard on land they own behind the house. None of this activity is taken into account in national statistics about the “working-age population,” which under-estimate the true size of Japan’s workforce despite the near ubiquitous nature of this family support. Japanese families are not like Western families, and you can’t treat something like “declining birthrate” or “ageing population” that is intricately connected with the nature of the family and social support networks without considering this.
Why Debt is Not a Problem
So, in terms of pure resources, the ageing population is not necessarily a problem for Japan, and offers Japanese people an opportunity to reform their workplace culture for the better. Increasing women’s participation by requiring workplaces to offer maternity leave consistent with that which the government offers (i.e. forcing employers to grant unpaid maternity leave to their staff) would both increase women’s workforce participation (thus increasing the pool of workers) and increase the birthrate. Having a quiet word with the major employers and their organizations, and forcing them to abolish the stupid transfer system (or strengthen labour laws to give employees a full right of appeal) would enable people to remain in one city and build their non-work lives. This would lead to short term redundancies and perhaps cost increases, but inflation is low and unemployment is very low, so it would doubtless not be a significant long-term problem. So the problem is easily solved but might require increases in government spending to cover maternity leave, increased childcare places, etc. This is anathema to the deficit terrorists, because Japan has a high debt-to-GDP ratio, and it is seen as “unsustainable.” The alternative, of doing nothing and just allowing the workforce to shrink, is also considered unsustainable because the debt will be serviced by an increasingly small number of taxpayers.
Putting aside Japan’s ability to raise taxes to cover this problem, the whole debate is completely wrong-headed anyway. Let’s do what the deficit terrorists love to do, and compare Japan to a household. Let’s suppose it has a working-age population of about 25% of the household, which is about what it is projected to become (I think). For a normal Japanese household, we can imagine this as two ageing, retired parents, two 50-something adults, a child in University and a child in high school. The mother and the university-age child work part time and the father works full time. That’s about 25% of the population working. They have debts equal to 120% of their income. Furthermore, if we place them in the same economic position as Japan is internationally, we have to assume they’re near the top of the income scale; Dad is a university professor or company director, as was his dad. If this family approach the bank for a loan to make their house more disability-friendly, so that mother is better able to care for the disabled parents, and thus able to work an extra day a week, would any bank manager turn them down? I don’t think so – their debt would be seen as completely sustainable. In fact if it were America this family would be encouraged to take a loan to invest in a second property or the share market (as I have been). In fact, the American or Australian dream involves a family with both adults working as hard as they can, with loans equal to about 300% of their combined income that have been taken out on a house they can only afford if its value continues to increase, and who were encouraged during the boom time to refinance and use their house as an ATM to fund their lifestyle. This was considered “sustainable” in the 2000s by most deficit-terrorists when it was done by individual households. Why is it unsustainable for Japan as a country?[2] In fact, when considered in this way, Japan is well able to finance its future problems through debt.
Some Opportunities for Japan in the “timebomb.”
Lifting the burden of social care
One of the most crushing remaining social burdens for women in Japanese society is their role as carers for ageing parents. The general assumption of Japanese life is that the eldest child will care for their parents; if a man, his wife will do it; if a woman, she’ll marry someone else’s younger son, he’ll move in with her family, and she’ll do it. But this assumption can only be maintained if most families have at least 2 children, since as soon as a lot of families start having one child, the 2-to-1 ratio of caring can’t continue. Someone has to let their child move away and do without being cared for. At at this point the system breaks, and the replacement will undoubtedly involve institutional care. The declining birthrate is driving Japanese old people into assisted living and care homes, liberating their daughters and daughters-in-law from an onerous and unpleasant family responsibility. This is a huge plus.
Achieving feminist goals
Being slaved to childbirth is a huge restriction on women’s freedom, and as the birthrate plummets women are increasingly free to live their own lives. In an ageing society with long lifespans and only 1 or 2 children per woman, women have more freedom to explore their own interests before having a child, and have more time after child-rearing to return to a fully rewarding non-family life. Reducing the number of children women have to bear has been a long-term goal of feminism, and it has been achieved in the East Asian countries. This is a good thing, and we should not be rushing to reverse it; this is also part of the reason, I think, that many people refer to the modern Japanese era as “the women’s era (onna jidai).”
Increased Immigration
Japan will benefit culturally and economically from increased immigration, but will never get this immigration without conscious effort due to the language barrier. The ageing population means that Japan has to look overseas for some types of worker, especially carers, and has started, for example, to train Philipino nurses in Japanese so that they can come and work in Japan. This gives Japan the chance to diversify its population and improve its connections with its Asian neighbours. In general Japanese relations with Asia are good but increased immigration can only make them better. The ageing population is an incentive for the government to start planning this and investing in Japanese language education throughout the Pacific. This is a huge long-term benefit for Japan’s regional relations.
Reform of Workplace Laws
The main way that Japan will increase its working-age population in the long and short term is to improve women’s participation in the workforce, and especially to improve their ability to balance work and family life. This is something that has been a long time coming in Japan and will benefit everyone, not just women who want to balance career and family. It will enable men to settle down earlier in their careers, will prevent the horrible cruelties of transfers[3], and will lead to a general reduction in overtime and overwork. This is a huge benefit for everyone.
Why Ageing Populations are Good
The opportunities identified for Japan also apply to many other countries, but I think there are some additional benefits that derive from the ageing population that are good for everyone, and which we should embrace:
- Increased Opportunities for Developing Nations: One commons solution to labour shortages in ageing countries is to import immigrant labour from poorer countries. This is good for the people of those countries; for places like the Phillipines, foreign remittances are a sizable proportion of total private foreign investment in the country, and are good for its economy. So as we age, immigrant labour provides a form of economic aid that those countries need and that also benefits us. It’s a win!
- Less Crime: Ageing societies will experience lower rates of crime and less serious types of crime, which is good for everyone
- Reduced Conflict: Ageing societies have less ability to wage war, and have to reduce defense spending due to both a loss of combat-age adults, and a need to redirect spending to services. Countries that are less likely to wage aggressive war make better citizens; furthermore, when they realize they can’t maintain an aggressive army they are likely to switch their funding for forward defense from the military to aid, which again helps their poorer neighbours. This is exactly what Japan does, of course.
- Changeing Lifespans: partially freed from the hard restraint of giving birth by 27 or 28, adults in ageing populations essentially extend their youth from 21 to 32 or 35. They also regain a second kind of youth at 50 when their child goes to university but they are still, by the standards of the ageing society, young. If you visit a Japanese love hotel on a Sunday afternoon in a major city, you’ll see that people at 50 are indeed very spry (and quite vocal!), though they may not be being spry with their life partners. The demographic shift to small families and longer functional lifespans means we get more of our lives to devote to leisure; as many as 15 years of work before childbirth, and another 10 to 20 years of full physical function after completion of the child-rearing process. This is a good thing, and we should embrace it, though it does mean redefining our understanding of youth and middle age; but that is also a good thing
As is the case with all aspects of civilization, Asia is leading the way into the future. The way the future of Japan’s ageing society develops will be very different to the expectations of the deficit terrorists and the demography alarmists of the right, and it will also, I think, be very different to the expectations of leftist and feminist critics of Japan’s response to the “problem.” Instead we will see Japanese society improved and diversified by the experience of ageing, with few serious economic consequences other than a slight increase in taxation and inflation.
—
fn1: Given the number of love hotels in this country, the idea that Japanese are shagging less than non-Japanese is ludicrous. The last representative national survey conducted (in 2000) found 13% of all respondents in a long term relationship had sex with an average of 2.4 casual partners in the last year. Given how private Japanese people can be about sex, the possibility that they are lying through their teeth in these surveys is all too real.
fn2: I find it amazing that this stupid idea of comparing a country to a household has managed to become so useful in the deficit-terrorist toolkit, given that the last 20 years have seen a wave of unsustainable debt-financed bingeing by households that goes well beyond anything any country in the OECD has done. The fact that this idea is acceptable in polite discourse in the media is a sign of just how stupid journalists are, and how poor the contribution of classical economics – from which discipline most deficit terrorists are recruited – has been to debate about the future
fn3: In case you think I’m exaggerating the horrors of this, my university in Beppu would transfer people to its Kyoto office with one months’ notice; I once taught an intensive English course to a guy who was being sent to the Phillipines with one month’s notice, leaving his wife and two children in Japan. He spoke no English and was moving to an office with no interpreter. This is beyond mean.
November 6, 2011 at 8:39 pm
“the world’s second largest (or is it third now?) economy”
It’s the 3rd: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12427321
“People are talking now about Japan’s population crashing in 2050; I bet in the 1970s they were talking about the yellow peril taking over the world with their high birth rate. A lot can happen in 40 years.”
1. I doubt they were talking about the Japanese population expanding wildly in the 70s. Japanese population growth has been lower than the US and Australia since about 1975. Even before that it was trending around 1.5% which was higher than the US (about 1%) but less than Australia (which seems around 2% in the 60s/70s [1]): http://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_grow&idim=country:JPN&dl=en&hl=en&q=japanese+population+growth#ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_grow&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country&idim=country:JPN:AUS:CHN:USA&ifdim=country&hl=en&dl=en [3]
2. While it’s true that trends change over time, I can place a bet that I have 100% faith in. If there are fewer births each year [4] then in 41 years there are going to be fewer native born 40 year olds than there are 41 year olds. This is because my project management skills allow me to estimate that the lead time on creating a 40 year old is around 40 years and 9 months [5].
3. Unless Faustus wants to suggest that another vast rise in life expectancy is around the corner, then you can extrapolate further and say “Holding life expectancy constant, with a fertility rate below replacement then each year there are fewer people in the country than the prior year”. This has actually started happening in Japan, so it’s hardly a theoretical problem.
The reason this trend matters is that in countries with a heavy migrant population (i.e. the US, Australia) then you can actually outsource the making of people too, right up to the point of getting the age you want right off the shelf! But for countries with a low migration rate (around 15k new citizens a year [6]), a language that isn’t taught to everyone with a dream of a better life, and a relatively closed culture (regardless of the fact that I love what I know of it) then you can’t assume that this option is available to bring in the numbers you need. And Japan’s current worries (and their work to solve them) shows they can work that out as well as I can.
“government spending to cover maternity leave, increased childcare places, etc. This is anathema to the deficit terrorists, because Japan has a high debt-to-GDP ratio, and it is seen as “unsustainable.””
Depending on how long you intend to run these deficits for and how successful your wholesale change in the employment trends are then saying it’s unsustainable can be valid. Remember “unsustainable” doesn’t mean “Can’t be sustained forever” it means “Can’t be sustained without becoming Greece before being able to repay your debts”, therefore the rate that you’re increasing the deficit is a race against your social changes. But the social changes don’t pay off for at least 18 years (and more like 25 to allow time for them to take effect and the kids to go to uni) so this race is pretty clearly a marathon.
To model your theoretical changes to increase the population growth, we can start with the Japanese current debt at 198% of GDP (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_debt for the table of current debt). That increased by 16% from two years prior, so let’s assume that it’ll increase by 3% a year every year with their current policies if there was no financial crisis [7]. This approach ignores the fact that if you’re running a budget deficit it becomes a compounding debt, because once that comes a significant factor that’s when you’re Greece (which is the lose condition in this model). So assuming your changes may cost an extra 2%/year and we need to do it for 20 years. 198% + (20 x 5%) = 298% public debt to GDP. The ability of Japan to finance this internally has to cap out at some point…
Given how far apart our figures are (198% for 2010 according to the CIA and 225% for earlier this year according to a NYSE article versus 120% according to you) I have to wonder if we’ve got a fundamental disconnect in our data sources. Can you confirm 120%? My point about the long time frame for your investment’s pay off stands, but my figures suggest societal collapse tomorrow, which I’m doubtful of (though the sources look good or OK).
“In fact, the American or Australian dream involves a family with both adults working as hard as they can, with loans equal to about 300% of their combined income that have been taken out on a house they can only afford if its value continues to increase, and who were encouraged during the boom time to refinance and use their house as an ATM to fund their lifestyle. This was considered “sustainable” in the 2000s by most deficit-terrorists when it was done by individual households.”
You really love attacking these “debt terrorists” don’t you. My memory of the last decade was that this was regarded as sustainable by everyone. Then everyone were proven fairly conclusively wrong. But some people still regard debt as a worse thing than you do, therefore they’re terrorists.
Just as a quick note, calling someone a debt terrorist is roughly equivalent to implying that Obama is a socialist Muslim. You’ve just calling them an insulting name so you can mentally link them to something people dislike – propaganda of the most obvious sort. That’s the act of a bad person. If you want to call them debt hawks, knock yourself out. I’m not asking for you to agree with them, just to try to be civil.
So, now let’s look at your “Opportunities”:
1. “Lifting the burden of social care”
You suggest that a lack of carers in the family will lead to an increase in institutional care. This is just a statement of the blindly obvious. The real question is does institutional care become the primary option, or does it only occur when family care is unavailable? If the former, then there are efficiencies available across the country, which is an opportunity. If the later then it’s just another drain on the economy as the same portion of women will have to deal with the problem (i.e. as many as can be guilt tripped into it) but with a lower portion of parents get the family based care.
2. “Achieving feminist goals”
You say that feminist gains shouldn’t be reversed. Sorry but this is actually the opposite of an opportunity. If it could be reverse then that’s a risk. So not a good thing.
3. “Increased Immigration”
Under this “opportunity” you describe a solution being planned due to the sort of projections you scoff at in the first paragraph. Then you make an implicit assumption that a diverse population is a good thing or that the regional relationships need further work. The first is just a personal judgement, which is valid, but not necessarily true (it isn’t racist to say that it’s morally neutral) – I’d only worry about it to the extent it moves your culture in ways you don’t want (i.e. I suggest not allowing people who tick the Yes box for the question labelled “Do you support the overthrow of the government by force or subversion?”). For regional relationships I don’t know anything for Japan, but you do say they’re already good – how much better do you see them getting? What benefit will come from them being better?
4. “Reform of Workplace Laws”
Given you’ve described how you want it changed this is indeed an opportunity, though as a demonstrated in my comments on how high the debt could go above, it’s also a challenge.
“Reduced Conflict: Ageing societies have less ability to wage war, and have to reduce defense spending due to both a loss of combat-age adults, and a need to redirect spending to services.”
This one is just wishful thinking. You’re making global projections, so what you’d really need to say is “Rich old nations that don’t defend themselves is a good thing in a world where there are some other very poor parts that have a median age under 20”. Why don’t you ask London how well having a bunch of defenceless pensioners near some poorly socialised yoof goes?
I’ve got to say your argument’s don’t convince me. They contain some suggestions that will offset (i.e. prevent) the worst case scenarios being suggested. But the fundamental starting point is a model that guarantees that if you start from where Japan is and play a conservative game the way you’re suggesting you end up in an unhappy state. Personally, I’m not as negative as various commentators you object to are, so my points would be:
1. All historical societies we have data on are either growing or dying. We do not have any known steady state models.
2. You can point at solutions for managing declining populations all you want. Those solutions you suggest are still built to answer problems encountered in the historical models that don’t successfully address the situation we’re talking about.
Therefore while I’m not negative about the ability to fundamentally change our economic structure, societies and cultures, I’m not going to say it’s as simple as increasing just workflow participation. For example, it may be necessary to drop the idea of 30 years of retirement prior to death and instead go back to a “work till you’re about to die” model (though I hope not, I’m currently assuming that I’m doing 30 years of concentrated gaming at the end of my life). Despite your dismissal of green theories early in your post I can imagine that they probably have some suggestions too. Global warming is also likely to significantly impact the situation and even the range of available options. Global warming solutions run the range from “Shut everything down” to “You’ll just have to vastly reduce consumption”, anything like that is going to make the discussion about how to keep your economy going nonsense.
[1] Either this was the immigration boom around that time, or else “Go you Aussie rabbits!” [2]
[2] Actually the fertility rate around then was around 3, so I’d have to bet on a combination of the two.
[3] This graphing tool is cool.
[4] There actually aren’t for Japan, it’s below 1.5 fertility rate, but there has been a mild upswing in the last 5 years. So this bet doesn’t (quite) hold true).
[5] Though the development team think the correct time is closer to 20 years +/- 100%. Expect project timeline blow outs.
[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Japan#Immigration though the temporary worker rate is mucher higher. To put it in perspective, Australia accepted 13,799 people under Humanitarian visas in 2010/11: http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/60refugee.htm Total net Australian immigration was 77,000 in 2008/09: http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/02key.htm (though I didn’t bother searching further for the current years figures)
[7] It’s actually increasing at 7% a year for the last 20 years apparently: http://wallstcheatsheet.com/economy/japans-debt-crisis-5-things-you-must-know.html/ [8]
[8] That page is full of fun facts like “Put another way, a 200 basis point move higher over time in Japan’s interest rates will increase their interest expense by more than ¥20 trillion [with current central government revenues at approx ¥48 trillion/year]. If Japan had to borrow at France’s rates (a AAA-rated member of the U.N. Security Council), the interest burden alone would bankrupt the island nation.” and (more importantly) “Japan has avoided this deficit financing end-game, because the nation has been able to finance 95% of its debt at home.”
November 8, 2011 at 11:19 am
Thanks for commenting Paul!
While it’s true that trends change over time
My point here was not that the trend will not be real if things proceed at the current rate; it was that societies change so much in 40 years that demographic predictions are largely meaningless. Hence in the 70s people would have been predicting Japan to have a much bigger, younger population than it does now. The 70s was the time of Erhlich and the zero-population-growth movement, for precisely this reason: they saw exponential growth rates and assumed that society would not change over the intervening years. I think free societies adapt naturally to changes in social structure and are inherently self-correcting, so something will happen between now and 2041 to get the Japanese breeding again.
But for countries with a low migration rate (around 15k new citizens a year), a language that isn’t taught to everyone with a dream of a better life, and a relatively closed culture (regardless of the fact that I love what I know of it) then you can’t assume that this option is available to bring in the numbers you need
Yes you can’t assume it, but it does mean that you have a lot of space to change it. Compared to say the UK where there is a lot of very public objection to immigration, and it’s politically difficult to propose increasing it to handle a declining birthrate. So Japan can adopt a mix of responses: mild increases in tax, mild increases in women’s participation, mild increases in immigration. It can opt for short term solutions (e.g. immigration and migrant workers) and long-term changes (to maternity leave and work culture). But Britain has a lot of these levers already stuck in the wrong position, especially the short term ones. This isn’t to say Japan will adopt all these measures (or any) but it is in a much better position to change any of these things than are many countries.
Remember “unsustainable” doesn’t mean “Can’t be sustained forever” it means “Can’t be sustained without becoming Greece before being able to repay your debts”
No, because Japan is sovereign in its own currency, and cannot in any meaningful sense be compared to Greece, Italy or Ireland. This is an important point about deficit terrorism that I’ll come back to later (and to the use, pace Krugman, of the term “deficit terrorism”).
I can’t confirm 120% btw, and am happy to go with 200%.
My memory of the last decade was that this was regarded as sustainable by everyone.
Well, no. Krugman was worried about it, and the Bank of England wrote multiple reports from the mid 1990s onward about risk and remuneration in the financial sector, debt stress and mortgage risk. Barry Ritholz at the Big Picture and the calculated risk blog have been talking about this for years. The French avoided a lot of the GFC because they weren’t willing to allow the same easy credit as the US. Tanta (sadly now passed away) at Calculated Risk was all over this from 2006 and she was a late joiner to that blog. I’m sure you’re aware that those blogs are run by industry insiders with a good grasp on the issues. The main people who were claiming this was sustainable were people who stood to gain financially (the banks), people who stood to gain politically from the appearance of prosperity (Bush and Blair), and people for whom it bolstered their weird political ideals (the head of the Reserve Bank before Bernanke, the neo-liberals, and the entire set of right-wing commentators in America who were happy to watch the median American income decline in real terms over 20 years, while pretending this was good for the majority of Americans). Basically, the anti-Keynesians were all over this as a viable economic model, despite the lessons from Japan’s bubble. It was the end-game of Reaganomics, and they needed the debt bubble to avoid facing the reality of that particular ideology.
About my “opportunities”: I’m not sure what you’re saying about the feminism one (I don’t think there will be any going back). Yes, claiming immigration is an opportunity is a political statement that essentially can’t be defended to the satisfaction of people who disagree – it’s just opinion (I think it’s okay to state opinion when identifying “opportunities”).
so what you’d really need to say is “Rich old nations that don’t defend themselves is a good thing in a world where there are some other very poor parts that have a median age under 20″
No, no! You’re confusing here “defend themselves” with “invade other nations.” A good thing about ageing societies is that they will be less inclined to invade other countries. That isn’t to say they won’t become victims of invasion themselves by the “aggressive” younger countries, Mark Steyn style, but the reality is that wars require someone to start them and the less people starting wars the better. I’m happy to accept that this is an assertion as well. I’m also happy to agree with this strong point of yours:
All historical societies we have data on are either growing or dying. We do not have any known steady state models.
I don’t know if this is true or not but it seems superficially plausible. I think this is the big problem with accepting the ageing of our society, because we don’t know what it will mean and our social and economic sciences aren’t sophisticated enough to inform us – we’re heading into the great unknown. But we live in societies that fetishize youth and have an economics discipline that – across all parts of the political spectrum – fetishize growth, so it’s understandable people are worried about going there. But I think we can carve out a development path that is good for society and good for the environment, by accepting ageing and thinking about a new society.
For example, it may be necessary to drop the idea of 30 years of retirement prior to death and instead go back to a “work till you’re about to die” model (though I hope not, I’m currently assuming that I’m doing 30 years of concentrated gaming at the end of my life).
I think this needs to be accepted at some point as a good thing. Or alternatively we need to start thinking about a society where not working is considered good, and people only do “productive” work for a decreasingly small proportion of their lives.
Global warming solutions run the range from “Shut everything down” to “You’ll just have to vastly reduce consumption”, anything like that is going to make the discussion about how to keep your economy going nonsense.
They also include “we’ll have to find a way to make consumption sustainable.” I think the skepticism about society’s ability to do this derives from the aforementioned fetishization of growth and an inability to recognize that growth can be driven by non-material resources (especially information and services). If we avoid global warming’s worst consequences, it will be because we worked out how to continue consuming without affecting the planet. I’m not confident that we will be able to do this, but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. The two solutions you mention are a fantasy of opponents of AGW, who think that every form of industrial regulation is the death knell of business. They aren’t actually the solutions the majority of proponents of mitigation have in mind (though I know some environmentalists who do, and I also know some who think that denying developing nations the option to grow is also a sensible response to AGW – an enormously racist position, I think).
Finally, moving on to deficit terrorism, let’s look at your footnote 8 at as a starter:
That page is full of fun facts like “Put another way, a 200 basis point move higher over time in Japan’s interest rates will increase their interest expense by more than ¥20 trillion [with current central government revenues at approx ¥48 trillion/year]. If Japan had to borrow at France’s rates (a AAA-rated member of the U.N. Security Council), the interest burden alone would bankrupt the island nation.” and (more importantly) “Japan has avoided this deficit financing end-game, because the nation has been able to finance 95% of its debt at home.”
This is absolutely bullshit, and the people who wrote this must know it’s bullshit. Under any reasonable set of scenarios, Japan’s interest rates will only increase by 200 basis points after there have been years of economic growth – solid economic growth – followed by inflation. Economic growth will reduce the ratio of debt to GDP as the economy grows, and increase central government revenues, while the inflation will reduce the debt. This is fundamental to the modern central banking system: the only reason interest rates will increase at all is if inflation goes above 2%, which can only happen if economic growth is high – probably like Australia’s, at between 3 and 5% per annum over several years. You’re looking at 5-10 years of growth at about 3% a year to get inflation above 2%, which means that by the time the 200 basis point rise has occurred, government revenues will be more like 60 trilllion yen a year even if they don’t raise taxes. In the interim, of course, that extra revenue will have been used to pay down debt. What this site means to say is “if the BOJ capriciously raise interest rates to reckless levels for no reason, Japan is fucked.” Well, quite. They then go on to miss the obvious in their next sentence. If the debt was not financed at home, Japan’s interest rates would be irrelevant. But the debt is financed at home, which means that not only is it intricately linked to Japan’s own economic growth, but it is immune to currency shocks (as opposed to when Iceland’s private debt was largely financed abroad). So what does this debt actually represent? It’s banks and superannuation funds purchasing govt bonds as low-risk investment instruments in order to offer savings accounts to Japanese citizens. The interest payments here, rather than representing some drain on Japan’s economy, are simply a transfer of wealth through taxes from the Japanese people to … Japanese holders of govt bonds. It’s a classic representation of the simple economic fact that government spending=private saving. Essentially by issuing notices enabling Japanese banks and savers to get a small income stream from the government, the government has been able to finance infrastructure spending. The alternative questions these idiots at “wall st cheat sheet” should be asking is how the Japanese people could save money if the government didn’t issue debt? A question, incidentally, that the Australian government was asking a few years ago when it looked like they might pay off the whole government debt, and realized that doing so would be extremely reckless.
These people at Wall Street Cheat Sheet also say this: “Over the last year Greece with a third less and Ireland with less than half the debt to GDP ratio of Japan, imploded when foreigners refused to invest.” This is a fundamentally dishonest comparison because both of these countries are not sovereign in their own currency, and their debts are tied to an interest rate set by the central bank to control inflation across the eurozone, which includes the fast-growing Eastern European economies and the powerhouse of Germany. Furthermore, their debt problem – especially Ireland’s – arose precisely because the debt is not financed in their own currency (it can’t be) and large portions of their debt were spent not on productive infrastructure development (which would have maintained employment and thus tax revenues) but on bailing out a group of companies that essentially destroyed the wealth of the nations in question. Now, some portion of Japan’s debt is a remnant of doing this in the early 90s but a large part of it was spent propping up the economy in the intervening time through job creation (deficit spending). There is simply no comparison – in sovereign debt issues, in fiscal policy, in monetary policy, or in industry policy – between Japan and these two countries. This is what is commonly known as “disingenuous” or “mendacious.”
Now, these people at wall street cheat sheet know all this, as do all the other second rate propagandists who spout on about debt being “unsustainable” and use countries like Ireland as teaching examples for government debt, or Weimar Germany for printing money. So why do they lie? Why do they make stupid statements about 200 basis point moves and “if Japan had to borrow at France’s rates” when they know these situations are physically impossible? Is it because they are thinking so simplistically that they should be banned from the internet, or because they’re trying to drive a propaganda line about government spending? I think it might be the latter. And people who lie and misrepresent basic theory deliberately in order to scare you are not simply “deficit hawks,” which is why Krugman calls them deficit terrorists. I think Barry Ritholtz uses this term too. When these people can be bothered arguing in good faith for their bankrupt economic policies, then I will do them the civility of calling them deficit hawks. I’m happy to call Obama and Merkel “deficit hawks” but David Cameron and the people at wall street cheat sheet are not “hawks.” They are deficit terrorists.
November 8, 2011 at 4:28 pm
”The 70s was the time of Erhlich and the zero-population-growth movement, for precisely this reason: they saw exponential growth rates and assumed that society would not change over the intervening years.”
No the 70s were dominated by the 0 growth movement as that movement failed to predict technology and agriculture changes that revolutionised food output. That movement was absolutely correct about the trend of the population.
The changes in the population growth rate have been fairly minor. In Japan since 1980 it’s gone down about 1% in 30 years. The fertility rate moved from 2ish in 1975 to 1.4 over 35 years.
If we assume that reversing it would take a similar length of time then the time to stress about it heavily is now! And frankly I’d suggest that these trends may be able to be adjusted over a much shorter period of time (i.e. 10 years) but the effort to do that is enormous and the dislocations that would occur (i.e. needing to cope with a population bubble at a certain cohort age) is significant.
Therefore, even if you’re right about the fact the trend will change in the next 30 years (and I do agree with that) it doesn’t change the fact that this is a significant issue that will need to be dealt with and should be considered now.
”So Japan can adopt a mix of responses … Britain has a lot of these levers already stuck in the wrong position … . [Japan] it is in a much better position to change any of these things than are many countries.”
There’s a school of thought common amongst right wing commentators that the culture is the determining factor for the success or failure of a nation. Regardless of whether either of us subscribe to that fully, I think we can both agree that we’d rather be running Japan, with its multitude of economic and political problems, rather than England, with its deep seated cultural horribleness.
So, yeah. Japan can recover. I wouldn’t point to its economic position or “short term levers” or other factors. I’d just say that I have faith that the Japanese people can come together to design and implement a solution. And they’d be willing to pay the costs to achieve those solutions without tearing each other into pieces or deciding that rioting is the way to save themselves.
”No, because Japan is sovereign in its own currency, and cannot in any meaningful sense be compared to Greece, Italy or Ireland.”
I reject this argument. Inflating away crippling debts is a terrible policy. Every time you hear “inflation” think “regressive taxation” because that’s what it is. It makes everyone’s money worth a smaller amount, which means that poor people suffer disproportionately as the cost of basics necessities rise. On top of that, inflating away your debts (instead of defaulting on them) is still noticed by the people you lent money to! So the result is that as you try to inflate away the debt of your 10 year bonds the next set of investors requires a much higher interest rate on the next set of bonds that you’re selling to pay off your debts this year.
Of course, it is possible to outrun your debtors using inflation. It’s called hyperinflation. Good examples of its occurrence are Germany in the 1930s and Zimbabwe in the last 10 years. This is not a good economic tool to use.
By the way, remember that 95% of the Japanese debt is owed to the Japanese people. You can’t depreciate the currency, as they want it in Yen. You could inflate it away, but this comes back to being a flat tax on your people that has the side disadvantage of eroding their savings.
Krugman seems to have hit upon the pundits method of ensuring they can correctly predict doom. Always predict it and eventually it’ll happen: http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/01/paul-krugmans-top-ten-recession.html
If you’re willing to credit Krugman for this, then let me get in early. I predict another recession is coming our way. There will be a long term bubble that is created that then pops when an economic shock occurs. Please put me down as predicting this every week for the next 50 years. Feel free to contact me at any time for a guess at where the bubble is and what the shock will be. Currently I’m saying “European bonds” and “Greece”. Check back next week for the next guess. For Australia the bubble is government spending due to mining income and the shock will be commodity prices.
And I do concede that Krugman (and others) were correct about the (eventual) causes of the recession. My point here is that there was always going to be a next recession (and there will be another one). The challenge is being vague right on the timing (i.e. not calling it years early or putting no timeframe on it).
”I’m not sure what you’re saying about the feminism one (I don’t think there will be any going back).”
If you don’t think there will be any going back, then how is there an opportunity there? You were already talking about how good the change was. For there to be an opportunity then needs to be further (positive) change possible – which you didn’t mention at all.
”Or alternatively we need to start thinking about a society where not working is considered good, and people only do “productive” work for a decreasingly small proportion of their lives.”
That is one of the models for green development. It is a variant of the “Shut everything down” one I mentioned, just dialling back how much is shut down.
” They also include “we’ll have to find a way to make consumption sustainable.””
Make it sustainable is a motherhood statement with minimal logic behind it. It would be lovely to support a 1970s style technical solution where the food (carbon) supply keep growing (stops emitting). But I’m not hearing of any massive technical solutions that are just around the corner that people are betting on (or investing enough in). Assuming there is no technical change then “make it sustainable” is a wish, not a policy.
”The two solutions you mention are a fantasy of opponents of AGW, who think that every form of industrial regulation is the death knell of business.”
Actually no. I got both of them from Monbiot’s book Heat. In Heat Monbiot starts with a quote from a famous global warming proponent. His prediction is that once the solutions to stop global warming are in place then the entire world will look like a 3rd world nation. Monbiot objected to that level of change and sought a solution that wasn’t as extreme. His solution required a total technological change, a near blanket ban on international flights, the end of personal transport like cars and a significant level of reduction in consumption.
Sorry, the models I mention are global warming believers who have bothered thinking it through without having a plan taken from the Underpants Gnomes [1]. They’re bothered describing the solution without using the words “And then a technology we haven’t developed yet is used to produce and store heaps of energy cheaply!”
” Under any reasonable set of scenarios, Japan’s interest rates will only increase by 200 basis points after there have been years of economic growth – solid economic growth – followed by inflation.”
To give an idea of how fast bond yields can go up 50 basis points: http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20111107-713107.html Greece took a day. Ireland took 34 days.
I’m not 100% sure I’m reading this right (because the change is so huge), but it looks like Greek bonds have gone up about 20% (2000 basis points) in the last year: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/government-bond-yield
So European bonds have gone up massively in a very short space of time! The reason people seem to be talking about 200 basis points is it seems to be what’s happened to the PIIGS. If you can find numbers showing lower change I’m willing to be corrected. But off these it seems an unlikely, but viable scenario.
The primary driver for a massive change like this isn’t inflation or economic growth. It’s lenders unwillingness to lend money at lower terms. And that mindset change tends to feed upon itself, so once it does swing it swings big.
Oh. And you’re talking about Japanese interest rates. That’s different to bond yields (or the bond market). I’d need to research the nature of the connection, but I’ll bet that Greek banks aren’t paying 25% interest, despite what that bond graph I linked to shows.
So all your comments on interest rates are irrelevant.
” The alternative questions these idiots at “wall st cheat sheet” should be asking is how the Japanese people could save money if the government didn’t issue debt?”
The answer would be “private borrowing to fund private investment”. It happens every day without the government having to do anything. The Japanese could even invest overseas. The nature of your question shows a failure to understand that interest rates are influenced by the government and central bank, not set by them. Look at Australia recession: The RBA cut rates and the banks just absorbed the cuts and didn’t pass them on initially. It’s because while Wayne Swan and left wing bloggers (and right wing bloggers) think that the RBA’s lever is directly connected to the banks’ mortgage rates it simply isn’t. It’s just a very strong relationship that people mistake for causation.
” This is a fundamentally dishonest comparison because both of these countries are not sovereign in their own currency, and their debts are tied to an interest rate set by the central bank to control inflation across the eurozone, which includes the fast-growing Eastern European economies and the powerhouse of Germany.”
This comment is irrelevant as you’re comparing interest rates again and not bond yields. You do know that Greece has a debt problem and is facing higher repayments, right? Did you also know that the ECB simply can’t wish that away the way you seem to think? If they could then the ECB would say “Europe, including Greece, pays 2% interest or you can suck it.” And the investors would provide Greece money. But what really happens is Greece says “I need to refinance 100 billion Euro of debt, what is the lowest price I can pay to get 100 billion Euro?” And the market says “Well it’s a bloody sight more than 2% I’ll tell you that. Let’s start at 20 percent and talk about how many of those lovely islands you’re willing to use as collateral.” And then Greece has the option of talking to the market, not paying its debts, or not paying it’s civil servants and welfare. All of these options suck for Greece.
You also repeatedly talk about whether the debt is financed in their own currency. This is not as simple as you assume. If financed in a currency you control or can influence (i.e. Yen) then you can stuff the Yen (i.e. sell heaps) to devalue the currency. But this drives inflation up because imports become more expensive. Alternatively you can debase your currency directly (i.e. print more) this drives inflation directly.
Furthermore, for countries that the lenders suspect are going to screw them over (i.e. Greece) they may only accept sovereign bonds, which are denominated in a currency the lender trusts (i.e. US dollars). This is what gives the US such a strong advantage – because it’s the worlds default reserve currency its lenders can never ( in practice) demand its debts be in another currency – so it can always inflate away its debt whereas other countries can be prevented from doing that.
The fundamental problem we’re facing here is that you’re starting from an assumption that the governments hold the power and that anything that doesn’t add up is because “debt terrorists” are trying to blow up your way of life. Your assumptions are wrong, [2] and you need to do some basic googling to understand what is going on instead of assuming that Krugman is not carrying a massive bias.
Note, that’s not to say that you can’t believe Krugman. Just stop citing nonsense and pointing at him to justify it. I bet he knows the difference between the rate set by the ECB and the bond yield that has the Greek government shitting itself.
”bailing out a group of companies that essentially destroyed the wealth of the nations in question.”
This sort of left wing talking point is the problem! The company was a large part of the wealth of the nation. The problem was that it was always a false wealth, just like the high home values and stock options and the other crap that it turned out wasn’t worth that much.
I fundamentally agree with your point that Japan is not a basket case, because I think that Japan will get the right people to stress about the right things at the right time. But the evidence you try to use to support your argument fails to pass the high school level of economics understanding. You are calling people terrorists because they make points you fail to understand. I dislike the saying that one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter, but in this case where no one is being blown up I think you may need to accept that these people are freedom fighters you don’t agree with.
Now I think you either owe these terrorist an argument that knows the difference between a bond yield and an interest rate, or an apology.
[1] Step 1: Get Underpants
Step 2: Umph
Step 3: Profit!
[2] For a start, in some cases like small to mid sized countries debt the market is more powerful and that’s a very good thing as that’s effectively that unions of individuals can hold the government to account. [3]
[3] See how it becomes more positive in your mind just because I said union rather than companies? There’s no significant difference when it comes to this sort of topic. It’s a group of individuals working together under the control of someone who’s probably abusing their union credit card.
November 9, 2011 at 11:18 pm
I think I’ll split this reply into two, so we can have multiple schizophrenic conversations at once.
No the 70s were dominated by the 0 growth movement as that movement failed to predict technology and agriculture changes that revolutionised food output.
No, I remember reading about the ZPG Crew, it was definitely about population growth and pressure for resources. You’re partially right about their failure to predict technological change (Ehrlich had a famous bet with Simon and lost, I think). But their attitude towards population was predicated on an assumption of non-zero economic growth. Ehrlich is a good example, in my opinion, of a good old environmental racist.
…it doesn’t change the fact that this is a significant issue that will need to be dealt with and should be considered now.
Absolutely! I’m not saying nothing needs to be done, at least I think I’m not; I just don’t think that what needs to be done is necessarily particularly drastic, or that the necessary changes should be seen as problematic for Japan, or that the ageing society itself is necessarily a bad thing. And I want to separate the issue from the common insinuations about debt and the ability to service it, as well. I can see that handling the ageing society is going to be a problem for Britain and China (though the environmental benefits of a reduced population may outweigh the social costs of ageing for the Chinese, I don’t know), but I think Japan has a lot of options at its disposal.
You say about the “feminism” opportunity …
if you don’t think there will be any going back, then how is there an opportunity there?
I guess a different word could be applied. Basically I think that ageing societies with less children are a boon for women, and – provided they aren’t forced into caring roles, which as I said I think is impossible practically – will lead to a flourishing of opportunities for women. In fact now Japan has this phenomenon of a generation of women choosing not to marry and instead to spend their disposable income on themselves. This may come back to bite them on the arse when they’re 97000 years old but it is a pretty unique situation in history, and I think women should be making the most of it while they can.
Make it sustainable is a motherhood statement with minimal logic behind it.
No, I don’t think this is true and I think most scientific environmentalists (if I can just invent a category so that I have imaginary friends to support me) agree with me. I wonder if Monbiot’s view has changed since Fukushima? One way to make growth sustainable would have been massive investment in nuclear power, as a 50 or 100 year long stopgap until renewables drop in price[1]. This would essentially solve a signifcant portion of the AGW problem, and changes to land-use patterns in the USA would probably do the rest (as would converting the freight shipping fleet to nuclear and/or sail, and moving freight onto railways). Now, you might think that living in dense urban environments doesn’t maximize your utility but it clearly isn’t the end of the world. Now, a major investment program in nuclear may not be easy but it’s hardly impossible. I know you’re going to object to this on the basis that greenies hate nuclear, but there have been lots of other completely achievable options floated. In the ’70s, alongside Ehrlich’s crew of crazies, there was also a movement interested in diversifying and disaggregating energy, another excellent option for sustainability. A lot of these options go by the wayside due to established social patterns rather than because they are themselves undoable or unpalatable. Making growth sustainable is not a motherhood statement, and I predict you’ll change your tune when you’re eating insects and scavenging for copper in landfill sites.
That is one of the models for green development. It is a variant of the “Shut everything down” one I mentioned, just dialling back how much is shut down.
This is completely not true. I don’t know where you get this idea from. If life expectancy extends to 90, and we can expect to be active to 80, but retain retirement at 65, then this means 15 years at the end of life where, on average, we aren’t working, vs. about 8 now. This means adding 7 years to everyone’s leisure time. Where did I say anything about spending this sitting in the dark, wearing an old threadbare cardigan and whingeing about the kids and the environment? For all I know these seniors could be going on long car drives, burning seals and throwing their non-biodegradable rubbish straight into the wilderness. The point is that they’ll be doing it on someone else’s money, or on their retirement package, and so society will have to reorient to handle the idea that people spend a lot less of their lifetime working than they once did. In order to support this we might need to move to a zero growth society, but let’s not get ahead of ourselves about how bad this would be. Japan is a zero growth society. Do you think they have dialled back and “shut everything down”?
And on to the debt debate…
—
fn1: I offer the stopgap option on the assumption, completely unfounded, that nuclear fuel might run out. I’m being conservative.
November 10, 2011 at 12:35 am
Onto debt…
I reject this argument. Inflating away crippling debts is a terrible policy … Of course, it is possible to outrun your debtors using inflation. It’s called hyperinflation. Good examples of its occurrence are Germany in the 1930s and Zimbabwe in the last 10 years.
Japan in 2011 is working under a fiat currency system, has a massive industrial base, a large and productive farming sector, and a large and functioning service sector. Its debts are largely denominated in its own currency and are the result of 20 years of free sovereign decisions. Weimar Germany was already suffering inflation from the war, flirted briefly with a return to the gold standard, and (according to wikipedia) had huge reparations imposed on them that “demanded reparations in gold or foreign currency to be paid in annual installments of 2,000,000,000 (2 billion) goldmarks plus 26 percent of the value of Germany’s exports.” Note that their debts were denominated in foreign currency, and a significant portion of their exports were slated to paying the reparations. Zimbabwe has almost no industry, a collapsing farm sector, rapid emigration, and a political system in a state of low-level civil conflict.
Why are we comparing Japan in 2011 to these two countries? Why don’t we instead look at the US and Britain, who have been printing huge amounts of money in the last 3 years and have not seen any significant affect on inflation. Or why not look at Japan’s experience? They have engaged in multiple rounds of quantitative easing since 1990, and for most of that time have been deflating. And you can deflate the debt away if it is held in your own currency: this is always a political decision, not an economic one. I think actually most countries in world war 1 chose to take this option when they financed the war through debt (I don’t know for sure). It’s the act of a government in crisis, but it works. And would you say that e.g. the UK after world wars 1 and 2 was less equal than the UK before? This is an interesting question because it brings us onto a third conversational thread …
Every time you hear “inflation” think “regressive taxation” because that’s what it is. It makes everyone’s money worth a smaller amount, which means that poor people suffer disproportionately as the cost of basics necessities rise.
There’s a left-wing argument that states the opposite of this: that rich people suffer more under inflation than poor people. I don’t know if I agree with it, but the basic theory is that rich people (on average) gain more of their income from capital investment than poor people, who primarily live on wages. During periods of inflation capital loses value, but inflation is often associated with unrest and wage bargaining/wage breakouts that mean that poor people don’t necessarily lose their purchasing power. However, rich people do lose some of their wealth, so you have the net effect of poor people’s wages staying roughly in line with the cost of living, while rich people’s decline. I can see the logic of this argument, though I think it’s kind of screwed a bit by the relationship between inflation and unemployment. But the world wars led to inflation in most of the western economies and also led to significant reductions in inequality (which could be because of the shift to central management), so there could be evidence in favor of the theory. Certainly the last 20 years of inflationary growth in the US hasn’t done anything for the real wages of the bottom half of US society, while the rich have become fantabulously richer.
Oh. And you’re talking about Japanese interest rates. That’s different to bond yields (or the bond market). I’d need to research the nature of the connection, but I’ll bet that Greek banks aren’t paying 25% interest, despite what that bond graph I linked to shows.
You’re right, I was talking about Japanese interest rates, set by the central bank. The relationship between bond yields and interest rates isn’t direct, because it’s driven by the relationship between short and long-term rates, and also is very closely related to the inflation rate. But under normal circumstances (“any reasonable set of scenarios”) this relationship is quite strong and interest rates on bonds don’t change much at all. This is why the Japanese government has been able to lift its debt by 50% (from 140% of GDP to 220%) over a 10 year period and 10 year bond yields haven’t changed at all. How is it that Japan can go from Greece’s current level of debt (that apparently will lead to default) to 50% higher than that over 10 years, but its 10 year bond yields can remain fixed at “sweet fa” (except when they dropped briefly to a much lower level, I think when the BOJ cut interest rates)? Because the crisis in the PIIGS has nothing to do with levels of debt, but is driven by a political crisis. I.e. not a reasonable set of scenarios. Greece and Italy have a major governance problem, which leads external investors to be distrustful of their statements about their own income. Greece has a stagflation problem (mild; 3.5% interest, or so, and -0.5% growth) and is unable to control it because it doesn’t control its central bank (interest rates are currently 0.5% I think). They also have unfathomed liabilities that they aren’t being honest about, and can’t print money to fix. The sudden spike in bond rates clearly has nothing to do with “unsustainable” debt levels, which have been at 100% of GDP or more since 2008. Even now, their level of government debt as percentage of GDP is much lower than Japan’s, lower in fact than it was in Japan 10 years ago.
These are not normal circumstances. I’m happy to concede that Japan’s public debt will become a problem if it finds it has to double it overnight to bail out a bunch of shithouse banks, loses control of its own currency, and reveals that actually it has been colluding with a major investment bank to hide the state of its finances for the past 10 years. But if it just keeps on plugging away, increasing debt slowly and carefully and maintaining good financial and political governance, doesn’t enter a regional currency zone with a neighbouring country that is 10 times its size economically so that its fiscal policy is essentially not under its own control, and continues to do what sensible countries do, its bond rates will continue to be set by a combination of interest rates and inflation. Which means that it will be immune to sudden 200 basis point increases in interest rates on debt, and will have only a very low risk of suddenly not being able to repay its debts.
But what really happens is Greece says “I need to refinance 100 billion Euro of debt, what is the lowest price I can pay to get 100 billion Euro?”
This is, plainly and simply, because German ordo-liberalism refuses to accept the realities of the situation, and won’t bail out Greece through the central bank. Two lessons here: don’t go into monetary union; and don’t go into monetary union with a fiscally conservative nation with a much larger economy than yourself.
Krugman seems to have hit upon the pundits method of ensuring they can correctly predict doom.
I think you’re completely wrong here. The website you link to shows Krugman making a series of increasingly accurate predictions, finally getting the date of the collapse right to within 6 months. But your alternative argument seems to be that economics knows all this stuff about debt and interest rates and governments and private markets and etc. but oh!fuck! We can’t predict the second biggest collapse in history. And I note that you have carefully avoided referring to the Bank of England’s discussions about the coming crisis. For the record, I picked it in 2004 from watching the adverts on my dad’s TV.
The answer would be “private borrowing to fund private investment”. It happens every day without the government having to do anything. The Japanese could even invest overseas.
So your answer to government debt, for the Japanese, is that they should choose instead to invest in riskier private instruments? Any Japanese person who wants a low-risk, low-interest way to store their money is just stuffed? Instead they should do what Icelanders did and take out all their loans in foreign currency, just so they can enjoy the ride if their own devalues suddenly? Or perhaps you mean that, if the Japanese want low-risk savings they should save privately? That’s exactly what they do now. But if the BoJ weren’t issuing these bonds, Japanese banks would have to go and get govt bonds from overseas. i.e. from some other country that needs to issue debt. Because there is no other low risk vehicle for savings except govt bonds.
So the alternative for Japanese would be to invest in cash. The practical way that this works is that the postal bank (the world’s largest savings repository) would decide one day that it needs to get rid of its govt bonds and find some other low-risk investment. It would, of course, have to choose cash. But there just isn’t that much spare cash floating around, so it would have to get it from the govt. How would it do this? The government would have to print yen. So then the postal bank would get rid of its bonds (to the govt) and take the cash (from the govt). The practical effect of this would be that the govt had printed money to buy back its bonds. Nothing would have changed – not from the point of view of the investors (ordinary Japanese), the postal bank or the govt. But you would be in a state of near hysteria, because the govt had printed money to buy back its debt.
Alternatively you can debase your currency directly (i.e. print more) this drives inflation directly.
Comparisons with Zimbabwe aside, you know this isn’t true. Japan, the UK and the US have been madly printing money (through their quaintly named “quantitative easing” programs) for the past 3 years, and have low inflation to show for it. And the UK at least is probably still in a liquidity trap. This is because all three countries have excess capacity, and the money isn’t causing any problems. So no, printing money does not “debase your currency directly” unless there are specific conditions in place. I happen to think (contra some modern monetary theorists) that one problem of ageing societies is that the main condition for safely printing money – spare capacity in the economy – will become increasingly difficult to meet. As the working-age population declines in size, unemployment will drop (though I guess it’s possible productive capacity in industry will increase, through robots). So it may be that Japan won’t be able to print money to pay off debt without creating inflation. This probably means that they’re better off doing it now rather than later, though even now there isn’t much excess capacity in Japan compared to, say, the UK. I also think that given this, at some point they need to stop ratcheting up debt and start thinking about repaying it – Japan is not the UK (with high excess capacity so easily able to print money to pay debts) or Australia (with low debt) but it does have low taxes and a relatively low workforce participation rate through unworking women and early retirement. So they can find a way, I guess to solve all three problems: increase taxes, to reduce the reliance on debt for job creation and to fund more childcare places (maternity leave is useless if people can’t find childcare after they go back to work) and aged care facilities; through doing this get women back into work, which both increases capacity in the economy and increases the tax base, as well as potentially causing the economy to grow; and perhaps try to spend that tax money better, because 10 years of govt spending with virtually no economic growth suggests that the spending ain’t working. But most of all, they need to reform their workplace culture and that is going to be very difficult given the cosy relations between unions, employers and politicians in this country. A system that was beneficial to growth and social stability in the 70s is no longer working, and needs to be reformed.
March 11, 2012 at 9:02 pm
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March 11, 2012 at 10:02 pm
I think I should leave this here as a monument to the pointless stupidity of spam.