… on a thread about censorship on warmist blogs. Ironic? After my brief excursion into the denialosphere, that ended with my rapid banning from Watt’s Up With That, you’d think I’d have known better, but there’s a juicy new scandal doing the rounds about a paper by a certain professor Stephan Lewandowsky that shows that skeptics are more likely to believe crazy nutjob conspiracy theories than warmists. Steve Mcintyre at Climate Audit has been running a particularly aggressive one man show against this paper, and most of his and Watts’s posts about it have been based on elaborate conspiracy theories about faked data. Oh, the humanity! But Mcintyre’s posts have been so disingenuous that I have felt a burning desire to comment, and so I did. My first comment got through, on the thread in which he (erroneously) claims to have proof that Lewandowsky’s data is fake. So did my second comment, on the same thread: Mcintyre replies to both. Well and good. However, after that things went pear-shaped.
Mcintyre has put up a new post about censorship at Lewandowsky’s blog, in which – because he’s all class – he originally accused Lewandowsky of a “pogrom” against one commenter. After debating whether or not this choice of language was tasteless, and suggesting that warmists who call skeptics denialists shouldn’t complain about a skeptic calling deletion of a skeptic’s comments on the internet a “pogrom,” Mcintyre finally got his shit together and changed the post to sound a little less … crap. The main thrust of the post is that a single commenter, Thomas Fuller, has had all his comments deleted from Lewandowsky’s blog.
Censorship! On the internet! Those bastards! How will the opponents of Lewandowsky’s work ever get their message across?
Indeed … So on September 15th at 10:19pm I commented with the following nugget of highly condensed wit:
cute! WUWT regularly deletes comments during moderation without any announcement, and one of its commenters is probably a sock-puppet for a moderator. Where is your thread of outrage on censorship in the skeptic blogosphere?
and right now, on September 18th at 10:05 pm, my comment is still stuck in moderation. This is cute because since then, Mcintyre found time to fish another of my comments out of moderation and reply to it, to write a whole new post on his attempts to replicate the Lewandowsky results, and no doubt to approve other comments. I’m pretty sure he’s been commenting madly at a WUWT “census” thread, too.
It’s also cute because of some of the complaints in his own censorship thread. For example, consider this one from Les Johnson on Sep 15th, about alleged censorship on a warmist site:
He simply left my responses in moderation, which I could see as being in moderation. Eventually, I was able to post by being tricky with the references. He put some of those back into moderation after they were public for a day.
Wow, look at the way those warmists censor debate! They even leave you in moderation …
At the same time, a comment of mine on the fake results thread also remains in moderation, presumably because it questions Mcintyre’s ability to perform the required statistical analysis. So currently I have two comments in moderation for at least two days, one of them on a post directly concerned with censorship of skeptics, that contains a comment directly complaining about being held in moderation.
Hypocrisy, thy name is Mcintyre.
In case you think this might be just some oversight – maybe Mcintyre is too busy slinging accusations of censorship and fraud at his political enemies to check his moderation queue? – I think it’s worth considering his earliest responses to the Lewandowsky paper for evidence of mendacity. In this post, he quotes the email he received advertising the survey, in which the research assistant (Hanich) states
When we published the surveys, we had two options:
a) Use the provision offered by the hosting company to block repeated replies using IP addresses. This, however, will block legitimate use of the same computer, such as in our laboratory, where numerous participants use the same PCs.
Mcintyre’s response?
And why would he be trying to accommodate respondents from their own laboratory? What business do they have filling out the survey in the first place? I wonder how many responses came from his own university? And how many of the fake responses?
It’s thoroughly obvious that Hanich is giving an example in his email, and not actually suggesting that members of the laboratory have been offered the survey, encouraged to take it, or directed to give fake responses. The only way that one can interpret Hanich’s phrasing as evidence of gaming a survey is by being deliberately, wantonly mendacious. This is vicious behavior by Mcintyre, though it’s worth noting that for Mcintyre this was (to quote a famous supervillain) “just Tuesday”: when he originally read of the publication of this paper, he loudly proclaimed he had never been contacted about the survey, and completely forgot this email that now so excites his outrage. Everything he has written in connection with this paper has been mean-spirited and deliberately deceptive.
I guess in time this controversy, like all the others, will fade away: the ice will melt, the planet will warm, and these internet thugs will be shown up for the idiots and liars that they really are. But in the meantime, I know that a lot of people read these sites and think that they represent honest debate: when they read WUWT they don’t realize that people who disagree with Tony’s “science” are censored, or that commenter smokey is a sock-puppet for moderator dbs; when they read a thread on censorship or fake results at Climate Audit they naturally don’t realize that these threads are being carefully policed to screen out conflicting opinions. So they get the wrong impression of the honesty and sincerity of these voices in the climate debate. These sites are not run by inquiring minds: they are liars. Their aim is to deceive, to manipulate the scientific record to support their own dodgy aims, and to intimidate their political opponents. Their goal is to deceive, not to educate, but people who don’t understand the details of statistics will not be able to tell the lies from the half-truths unless they are shown, which is why these sites carefully prune out anyone who can dispute their misrepresentations. Thus does Mcintyre get a reputation as an “expert in statistics,” and Tony Watts gets to be seen as an authority on climate science even though he never even got an undergraduate degree in atmospheric physics. They are liars, and they are lying about an issue of fundamental importance to the future of the planet.
In my book, that makes them scumbags, too.
Update: after I posted this I toddled over to Stephan Lewandowsky’s website and put up a comment noting I’d been censored at CA – I wanted some of Mcintyre’s readers (who were all over Lewandowsky’s website) to see it and get some sense of the veracity of their auditor. After a little time one of the CA auditors read it and replied, blaming censorship on the spam queue. Some time later, one of my two comments got unmoderated, and later still the other did. So, witness the benefits of complaint! Of course my comments had now been freed up on a thread that had stopped receiving visitors. Now that they’re on notice of accusations of censorship, the moderators there are behaving more carefully, though I notice that some of my comments get stuck in moderation a long time, while others get through quickly – often with a comment from Mcintyre. It’s a very effective way of controlling debate, and one I’m not familiar with from most blogs I frequent. For example, some comments I made last night have been freed up and replied to, but this one is still in moderation in the same thread:
RomanM, no one’s trying to marginalize you: they’re trying to understand how ordinary people interpret scientific debate, in order to better understand scientific communication in the future.
Unfortunately, traffic from there has now been directed here, and Mcintyre and his mate RomanM are starting to play games with my identity: a kind of subtle threat very popular on skeptic blogs. I can take a hint, so I’m not going to go back there. For newcomers here, I remind you of the Faustusnotes Privacy Policy.
September 18, 2012 at 10:57 am
I think Tony’s now banned just about every despicable ‘warmist’ who ever had the temerity to post on his blog (including sweet, mild-mannered me 😀 and the genuinely always courteous and tolerant R Gates). His threats and bullying don’t help matters. Tony’s recent poll shows his readership is completely out of sync with the general population – 99% of his visitors reject climate science.
McIntyre is just plain loopy. I thought this recent paper sent him over the edge, but I’m told he’s always been ‘bat-shit crazy’,
September 18, 2012 at 12:34 pm
On the “scumbags” issue, I have puzzled over that a lot.
Nobody sees themselves as “the bad guy”. Everybody thinks they are “right”, and justifies their actions accordingly.
But it is very, very difficult to try to empathize with these people who:
– invent (non-)facts
– deny the real facts
– engage in analysis where many facts are ignored
– engage in analysis where a small number of facts are given undue weight
– use threats and intimidation to silence critics
– always fail to admit to and correct mistakes.
I mean, what are they thinking?
When your opinion can only be advanced through lies and subtle thuggery, what do you imagine your opinion is worth?
How long can you continue to advance your anti-factual opinion when you are continually proven wrong, day after day?
September 18, 2012 at 1:45 pm
@Craig Thomas:
I suspect that you fall into a tribal mode of thinking and either focus on or assume errors and deliberate falsehoods in the other side. Once you’ve done that it’s much easier to justify your own sins of omission or deliberate falsehoods because, after all, it’s vital that you not only fight the good fight, but also that you win.
@Faustus:
Not that here is really the place, but is the survey data for repeated IP address surveys available? If so, it should be child’s play to just exclude those data points and then re-run the analysis. If the results are still significant then either the duplicate IP addresses didn’t influence the results or the influence was immaterial.
September 18, 2012 at 2:18 pm
Sou, I think Tony’s behavior is really off the charts. I mean, even if you think that comments at Climate Audit are just being held overlooked in moderation (after three days!), and even if you think the moderation methods at Shaping Tomorrow’s World are a bit extreme (I happen to think so), there’s no possible explanation for how Watts manages to delete successive comments, change their content and sock-puppet a moderator, all without informing anyone of what was done. That’s direct, straight-up manipulation and deceit, and there’s no explanation for it. I think Watts is a really bad piece of work. McIntyre is currently making claims to a very high standard of honesty, but I don’t think he’s showing it in his behavior – the quoted response to Hanich’s email is disingenuous to say the very, very least.
Craig Thomas, I think it’s possible that – especially on Watts’s site – people can overlook facts and misunderstand the science, and that’s okay I think. The problem is the surreptitious deletion-before-publication of any attempts to correct the misconceptions. However, McIntyre is a little more sinister, because he supposedly has a reputation for being an honest scientist but that “fake results” post is, as far as I can tell, misleading and would not say what he claims if done correctly. Similarly, his censorship and claims to have been censored, and his willingness to throw around accusations of fraud, makes for a very unpleasant public operation. So, contra Paul’s suggestion, I don’t think he is just letting a few aspects of high quality analysis slide in the interests of “fighting the good fight,” he is doing all he can to skew the public record.
As a result, I can’t think of a “skeptic” site that I could trust to give an honest critique of the science. It’s a good thing the scientific process is so robust, or we’d be in real trouble …
Paul, to tell you the truth I don’t actually think a great deal of Lewandowsky’s paper, though I do approve of the task of understanding cognitive models of the rejection of science – I think it has an honourable place in studying the history and philosophy of science, and as this “debate” on AGW unfolds it’s really good to see people trying to assess the cognitive processes by which acceptance and rejection of a scientific concensus occur. However, I don’t like seeing Factor Analysis done on 4-point scales, there’s obvious problems with internet surveys (unavoidable in this instance, mind), and the unbalanced sample (only 20% “skeptic” according to McIntyre) weakens the findings (I think it’s been well shown by Lewandowsky that that is the skeptics’ fault, not his). I doubt that the duplicate IP addresses thing is an issue – it’s not that many responses and they’re probably legitimate users at a library or other institution – and even if it was, it’s not possible to tell whether someone is gaming a survey even if they answer it in front of you (are their responses honest or not? We will never know), so this “self report” caveat is unavoidable.
McIntyre could probably test to see how bad this supposed IP duplication is with a clustering analysis: if he can’t identify clear clusters of gamed surveys that might be from the same source, perhaps he should just assume that the respondents were legitimate? Unless he has strong reason to believe otherwise?
I don’t however like McIntyre’s process of demanding everyone else provide him with data and code. He currently can’t replicate Lewandowsky’s results with Lewandowsky’s data. That’s not Lewandowsky’s problem, until McIntyre can show that he has used the exact method Lewandowsky did. And he can’t, because the only paper he’s working from is a working document that doesn’t contain a very detailed methods section. He could have contacted Lewandowsky nicely and asked for a couple of paragraphs’ explanation and the data; unfortunately he accused Lewandowsky of fraud before he checked his email and found he had been contacted about the survey. That kind of behavior doesn’t encourage cooperation, and if Lewandowsky has experienced even as limited a run through the denialosphere as I have, he will no doubt be thinking that McIntyre is a deliberately dangerous and deceitful critic, and won’t be doing anything to help him. Would you?
September 19, 2012 at 12:11 am
“He could have contacted Lewandowsky nicely and asked for a couple of paragraphs’ explanation and the data;”
Why would McIntyre bother? He tried the same with Gergis et al with their paper on SH temperature re-constructions. Dr Joelle (for a Dr she is, as am I (-:)) replied –
“This is commonly referred to as ‘research’.
We will not be entertaining any further correspondence on the matter.
Regards
Joelle
Dr Joelle Gergis
Climate Research Fellow”
So what has happened to this peer reviewed, seminal, ground-breaking paper that was going to headline AR5? The paper that she commonly referred to as research. The paper that no further correspondence would be entered into. The paper that was touted around the MSM. Does anybody know?
Karl Schwarzschild might if he was still alive. Perhaps Steven Hawking or even my old tutor Geoffrey Sewell.
http://65.54.113.26/Author/12892799/geoffrey-l-sewell
September 19, 2012 at 4:04 am
Everyone should pop over to WUWT and ask a simple question …
‘Where’s Smokey?’
And get a screen-cap when you do it….
😉
September 19, 2012 at 9:02 am
” So, contra Paul’s suggestion, I don’t think he is just letting a few aspects of high quality analysis slide in the interests of “fighting the good fight,” he is doing all he can to skew the public record.”
I didn’t feel I was suggesting he was letting anything “slide” when I said “deliberate falsehoods”. And whenever I say fight the good fight you can assume that good has quotes around it. Extremists and idiots everywhere think they’re fighting the “good” fight. Thinking that has no impact on the quality of your outcomes.
As for understanding the mindset that supports the rejection of AGW [1], I’m happy to volunteer for testing. The blog comments here document my own conversion from that camp. In my case it was largely a matter of trust of authors, more than understanding the detailed analysis, so I can understand your focus on comments, sock-puppets and lies/misrepresentations.
[1] Despite my change in camp, I’m still not going to call it a denialist position, because at the end of the day the aim has to be to convert people from that camp to the one that will take action on climate change. Using a provocative term will only entrench divisions and make it harder to change people’s minds.
September 19, 2012 at 12:17 pm
Not to exemplify Godwin’s law, but if you read a lot about Nazi Germany (or Wilhelmine Germany) the impression that comes across is that the elites saw themselves as oppressed, as targets of wicked deceitful enemies and as the likely victims of a vicious persecution. Likewise a few years back TV showed some footgage of heavily-armed Israeli settlers beating the crap out of some Palestinian kid while shouting “we won’t be sat on”. The first move is to deceive yourself – the rest then becomes quite easy.
September 19, 2012 at 9:49 pm
Sorry for not replying to comments everyone, I’ve been busy at work and a bit sick (Paul, the inequality thread will get attention from me when I’m awake, so don’t set your powder aside).
Peter T, that seems a bit Godwiny to me, but certainly there does seem to be a bit of a persecution complex going on with some modern elites. If only Mitt Romney had been born Mexican it’d be so much easier for him to be president! I think it’s a reaction to the changing times, and especially with the right-wing reaction to AGW there’s a very real fear that the greenies will be proven right. I think a lot of rightists really hate that idea.
Paul, I understand your position on referring to people as “denialist” but having been called a nazi within about 10 seconds of commenting on WUWT, I’m really not sure how many people in this denialosphere are seriously interested in debate. Obviously since I commented there I have some belief that I can make a difference to someone’s opinion, but I don’t know how much difference it will really make. On my previous post about this I did get commenters saying that if we keep trying to engage, newcomers to “denialism” (or “skepticism” or whatever) will see how they’re being misled, but I really don’t know what part of the denialosphere is rusted on ideologues and what part is inquiring minds. And given the speed with which censorship happens, the issue is probably irrelevant. I should add that in my dealings with left-wing blogs, especially on Pandagon (from which I was banned for questioning some racism against Japanese from one of the posters) I see some of the same ideologu-ism, but I also see a lot less censorshp and manipulation of comments, so I guess that people (from both sides) on those blogs are more interested in good faith debate.
(And on that topic, incidentally: I have never seen so much pre-moderation of comments anywhere else as I have encountered on global warming blogs. It’s a really divided, antagonistic area. Also, about the first paragraph of your comment: I assumed you were looking for some kind of positive or forgiving interpretation of peoples’ behavior! After all, we are all subject to a certain amount of confirmation bias (well, you lot are: I’m perfect), so I guessed you were arguing for a certain degree of forgiveness towards ideologues overlooking facts. My bad!)
Phil Clarke: has smokey been withdrawn from play since the accusations were made? A new one will rise from his ashes, I’m sure.
GrantB: Mcintyre has no professional standing. If he wants to audit other people’s work, he needs to ask nicely. I don’t now much about her but as I understand it Dr. Joelle (have you spelled her name wrong?) is a legend in her field. You don’t accuse people like that of fraud and then demand their data. And, with a history of accusing people of fraud, Mcintyre is highly unlikely to get any favours from them. He’s already been forced to update one post on Lewandowsky because he was completely wrong about the censorship, he’s already accused Lewandowsky of fraud before he checked his inbox. Why on earth should Lewandowsky help him in any way, shape or form? How has Mcintyre shown himself to be acting in good faith? If he wants to be able to check people’s work, he needs to show that he will treat them with some basic respect.
update: I edited one word in the second paragraph of this comment, where I previously wrote “wrong” instead of “right.”
September 20, 2012 at 8:54 pm
Hello,
Here’s my take home:
http://neverendingaudit.tumblr.com/post/31917893910
And just in case you need to dig into that Brandon Shollenberger character, here’s a pastiche of what’s coming up next in his comments to you:
http://neverendingaudit.tumblr.com/post/9088322943
You can find more gems from Chewbacca (my affectionate nickname for him) on my tumblog.
Keep on truckin’,
w
PS: Beware to write his name properly and never use his initials.
September 21, 2012 at 12:59 pm
Was a bit Godwiny – just the best examples I could think of. And its not just modern elites – a standard human train of thought is “if I do something bad to someone, it must be because they deserved it (so it’s all their fault)” with variations along the lines of “they started it” and “they do it too” and “well, they would do it if they could” or “they were thinking of doing it to me, so…”. The victim is to blame, and the victim is evil/stupid/backward…SO, we are really the victims (the Romney video has just this).
Liberals start from the basic position that all people are equal and equally rational, so they have more trouble using these excuses than the right. Many still manage – it’s just less prevalent.
September 21, 2012 at 1:03 pm
I would add that when all the real choices are unpalatable (as in Wlhelmine Germany, where the elites saw themselves as doomed by the march of socialism on the one hand, and the growth of the liberal powers and Russia on the other), then elites often retreat into self-pity coupled with wilfully stupid, reckless adventurism. Some of the same reek about much of the US elite.
September 21, 2012 at 1:26 pm
@Peter T:
“Liberals start from the basic position that all people are equal and equally rational, so they have more trouble using these excuses than the right. Many still manage – it’s just less prevalent.”
Peter, this assumption that errors are more prevalent on the other side of politics due to a weaker logical foundation is itself an example of the tribalism that endorses “victimising” yourself/your side.
If we simply examine numbers of political philosophys on left/right that are totally disconnected from reality, the left would win in reality rejection [1]. It’d probably also win on numbers over time (thanks to Communist regimes).
Of course, I concede that if we restrict it to the first world, at the moment, then the nutcases driving much of the US Republican party manage to make your statement correct (or correct enough anyway).
But that still requires a lot more disclaimers than you put in your post.
Or, if you feel that I’ve conflated Liberal and Left in general too heavily, we could just take Liberal in the political sense, but then it’s no strongly longer a Left/Right thing, because economic liberals on the right hold those assumptions even more than social liberals.
Or we could take Liberal in the US sense where it means Democrat or general Republican insult. But why on Earth would we do that to ourselves?
[1] This assessment is assisted by the fact that in a introductory politics subject I did in Uni, we covered about a dozen philosophies. All, including John Stuart Mill [2], were identified as left wing by the lecturer except for Facism.
[2] I don’t have any strong disagreement with anyone who wants to say his writings can be used in left-wing philosophy, but if you say his philosophy is inherently left wing then you’re defining parts of the libertarian section of the Republicians as left wing. At that point defining right wing becomes a struggle to avoid Godwins Law.
September 21, 2012 at 3:02 pm
Why tribalism? I said “liberalism” – not left-wing (economics is mostly rightish liberal). But the right (for lack of a better term) in general, from social darwinism and fascism through to moderate Burkean conservatism, does not believe both that all people are equal and that people are equally rational. Positions on this are ideological, in that there is no clear sense in which the statements can be said to be true or false. My conclusion that this makes it harder (although not impossible) for liberals to “blame the victim”; this says nothing about the ability of liberalism to detach itself from reality in general. But claiming that people are unequal, and that this justifies differential political treatment, is surely at the heart of almost any variety of right-wing thought (including libertarianism).
BTW, “blaming the victim” does not mean that they are not blameworthy. My statement was about psychology, not morality.
September 21, 2012 at 10:54 pm
Paul, did you really have a lecturer who described all of a dozen political philosophies as left wing? Was your lecturer left wing? His/her definitions seem a tad … overdone. Where would JS Mill fit with modern leftists? Somewhere in the hallway on his own, I’d guess, and definitely not at the bar.
I have to agree with Peter T, though I’m not an expert on the definition of “liberal.” In terms of cruder right/left definitions, and putting aside the extremes of both sides, it does seem like the right is more inclined to believe that people are fundamentally unequal. Not necessarily racially or sexually (though obviously we see a lot of that), but there does seem to be a tendency to that. Romney, of course, has writ this large.
I was actually contemplating, yesterday, after reading an article by Ross Douchehat, of all people, writing a blog post on whether George W. Bush could have been remembered as a great president. I might still do it for shits and giggles. I was comparing him with Romney and thinking (re: the gaffe), “George W. Bush would never have said that, and I don’t think he would even have thought it.” For all his (manifestly obvious) flaws I think Bush may have been willing to believe that people are equal, and he wouldn’t necessarily have been interested in treating the poor or uneducated as lesser beings for being in such a position (this is not to say anything about his willingness to pass laws that purposefully screw those people). And just following that stream of consciousness (bear with me, I’ve had a few beers and I have a cold), it’s easy to mistake right wing thought for a belief in the fundamental inequality of individuals, when in fact they’re just reflexively using power to their own advantage (and that of their immediate peers) without considering broader philosophical issues at all. Romney’s politics is that of the shark, which doesn’t think about whether you’re “equal and equally rational” when it eats you: it just thinks about whether it can.
Or maybe that’s too kind to Romney. Obviously a lot of these crazy Americans have got an ideology to defend their predatory behavior, but do they really believe it, or is it just a convenient tool for rousing a “base” that will never get to within a country mile of equality?
Paul Keating once made a speech (that stubbornly refuses to reveal itself to google) in which he described the Liberal Party (conservatives) as having grown up with the assumption that they were born to rule over people like him. In that speech he said that the thing that most riled them about him, and the reason they hated him with such a passion (and I think also Gillard and Latham[1], though they both came about after Keating) was that he grew up a nobody in Bankstown but had the temerity to believe he could run the country. I think he’s right, but maybe his rightness decays over time as party politics becomes more about ideology and less about entrenched class positions. Romney doesn’t care about the heritage of his 47%, he just cares that he’s not in it. The people Keating was talking about cared about the hereditary and racial composition of the 47% – I think that’s changing. Is it better that a sizable portion of our political class is shifting to believing that the only important thing is power over others? I think it might be, because one video like Romney’s fundraiser, and you’re sunk …
This gives me an opportunity to link to great quotes from Paul Keating.
—
fn1: what a wanker[2]
fn2: This is the sensible labour party catechism, the ALP version of saying “may peace be upon him”
September 22, 2012 at 3:13 am
Sorry to hear you have been having censorship issues at ClimateAudit, sounds like it is much worse than it was say a couple of years back when there were very few reports about it. However as someone on the other side of the argument, the censorship is a lot worse on your side of the fence.
Regarding the statistical issues themselves, we’ve been here before with people claiming McIntyre is an idiot on the subject – i’m thinking notably here of the Joliffe incident where Grant Foster was quoting a Joliffe textbook to show how Mann was right and McIntyre was wrong, then Joliffe turned up in the comments and stated he certainly did not support Fosters incorrect interpretation of his text.
September 22, 2012 at 7:01 am
I just checked on Climate Audit and found 15 out of 127 responses on the current thread there are by faustusnotes, so the censorship would seem to be slightly leaky.
September 22, 2012 at 8:08 am
By all means I encourage you to check in person to see whether the whining here about censorship of faustusnotes by Climate Audit holds water!
Go see!
Trust your eyes.
September 22, 2012 at 8:26 am
The last post by faustusnotes on Climate Audit
Posted Sep 21, 2012 at 5:23 AM, a full four days after claiming he was being censorship. Can we trust anything he says?
September 22, 2012 at 9:16 am
Hello everyone, welcome to my blog. If you look around you’ll note that this blog isn’t really about AGW, but if you’re interested in role-playing and healthcare issues, then stick around.
For everyone’s benefit I’ve added an update to the post about what happened since I wrote it.
If you’re interested in reasoned debate I’m happy to explain what I think is wrong with Lewandowsky’s work, but I think you’ll be disappointed by the tone around here.
For all my newcomers from Climate Audit, I have one question I’d love you all to answer: where’s smokey?
September 22, 2012 at 10:28 am
Hello Faustusnotes,
Could I please ask if can I take you up on your offer to “explain what I think is wrong with Lewandowsky’s work”?
This is a very “calm” beautifully written blog and I think it would be really very helpful for people to read an analysis from a practicing Statistician in this environment.
🙂 would you be able to explain in terms that a layman could understand? For myself it is difficult to understand how conclusions can be drawn from what seems so little data here.
This may be “too big an ask” Time is precious.
Thank you 🙂 Carrie
September 22, 2012 at 10:49 am
well as they say, Carrie, flattery will get you everywhere … unfortunately I’m going to be running a Warhammer adventure today and I have to prepare a goblin horde, so I have little time right now, but I can write a brief list and expand on them later:
– Generally internet samples are meaningless, but in this case I think he’s aiming to investigate an online community so I don’t know how else this can be done
– I don’t like factor analysis done on 4 point scales, because they don’t have the common properties of numerical variables for which factor analysis was designed and are probably vulnerable to extreme values
– My experience of exploratory factor analysis (EFA) has been to do a factor analysis on all the variables at once, not to do groups of variables that I have already decided might represent a coherent concept
– I’m not really sure that the question itself is meaningful or informative. This could be because I know nothing about the field of cognitive science, maybe a tendency to hold conspiracy theories is seen as a proxy for a whole battery of cognitive models and the question is legitimate within that framework
I’ll say something more about the 4 point scale issue and the “scammed” data when I’m not being swamped by goblins. I might even do the EFA my way, since I now have the data, but I don’t have the time right now. Goblins knockin’ on the door…
September 22, 2012 at 10:54 am
Have you ever thought about including a little
bit more than just your articles? I mean, what you say is important and all.
However think about if you added some great graphics or video clips to give your posts more, “pop”!
Your content is excellent but with pics and videos, this site could undeniably be
one of the most beneficial in its field. Great blog!
September 22, 2012 at 11:57 am
Faustusnotes,
Thank You! 🙂 Will look forward to the expanded post.
Read some of your other posts here and the “Banned from WUWT”, was also very interesting.
Carrie
September 22, 2012 at 12:12 pm
okay, the goblins have been primed, so I think I have 10 minutes to explain things before I go, so I’ll start with teh simplest issue: the internet sample. I haven’t read all of Lewandowsky’s intro and conclusion but I get the impression that he’s trying to understand the cognitive processes in the online skeptic/warmer communities. Certainly, AGW “skepticism” is primarily an online community, and would be very hard to sample from the real world, and measurements of “skeptical” thinking on non-engaged ordinary citizens wouldn’t in any case be generalizable to active “skeptics.” But to sample a representative number of “skeptics” who were actively engaged online would require a huge effort. This survey had 200 “skeptics” from various countries. If you imagine that 1 in 1000 ordinary people are active “skeptics”, you would have to survey 200,000 people to get that sample. In multiple countries! So if you want to understand the cognitive models of active skeptics you really need to sample them through their community – which is online. But then you find yourself struggling with the problem of online samples. I guess this is an ongoing issue for people who study online communities, no matter what their form.
I guess you could turn the criticism of it as an online survey around and observe that very few representative samples (taken e.g. face-to-face or over the phone) can capture 200 “skeptics” who are active online, from around the world. Sure, you could pay to have a few questions in an opinion poll, but you couldn’t ask all the questions in the survey and even if you did you wouldn’t be polling active members of an online pro- or anti-AGW community. So you would be assessing the mental model not of “skeptics” but of ordinary people who don’t, in general, feel strongly enough about the issue either way to engage even passively with any form of activism.
I don’t know if Lewandowsky has made these points in his paper but it seems to me that as a person studying online communities he is stuck with online surveys, and it’s almost impossible for him to construct data sets of the people he’s interested in any other way.
I also think the “scamming” issue is overstated. As Lewandowsky observes, there are only a certain number of duplicate IP addresses in his data, and it’s not many. As for people giving false answers – this is called reporting bias and it happens in every setting. The problem here is that those stung by the findings are trying to argue that only the warmists gamed the survey. This seems a highly implausible conspiracy theory on the face of it, and given that the aims of the survey were stated when it was published it could be just as likely that a bunch of “skeptics” gamed it too. The easiest way to ensure that this didn’t happen would have been for the major skeptic sites contacted by Lewandowsky to host the survey, but they refused.
Also, about the duplicate IP addresses, please note this: someone at WUWT (A Scott, I think) tried to run his own version of the survey to see if the results could be replicated (in the correct sense). Within a couple of hours of putting it up, someone had commented there to complain that they went through all the questions and got to the end, only to be confronted with a demand for identifying data. They wanted to know how it was going to be used, since they hadn’t been informed of it during before or after the survey. This would never have happened if the survey replication process had been put through a proper ethical review, as Lewandowsky’s was. Had this happened, the ethics committee would almost certainly have insisted that the identifying data be stripped out, and only IP address kept. The result would be that A Scott’s attempt to replicate Lewandowsky would be vulnerable to exactly the same accusations as Lewandowsky’s – that “skeptics” taking the survey from WUWT had deliberately scammed it, putting up multiple dubious survey answers from the same IP address. As it stands, the “skeptics” most likely to endorse conspiracy theories are probably also the ones most likely to be suspicious about the collection of their identifying details, and thus the ones most likely to refuse to complete the survey – making it a biased sample of the readers of WUWT.
This is the problem with ethical research: it sometimes prevents you from collecting the information you think you need, and it can lead to the introduction of a new set of biases. The solution is to discuss the limitations carefully in your text. I haven’t read Lewandowsky’s conclusions so I don’t know what he said about these issues, but I think we can be confident that once the replicated survey at WUWT is released, there will be no nuanced discussion of how the collection of personal details biased the sample, of multiple people scamming it, etc. Let’s see if they prove me wrong…
September 22, 2012 at 7:22 pm
Do you believe in any of the conspiracy theories in the survey?
Do you believe that conspiracies exist?
Do you believe that leftists believe more conspiracy theories than rightists? Does believing in any conspiracy theory make you a non believer in Science generally and climate science in particular?
Is labeling something as a conspiracy theory just a crude attempt to avoid answering legitimate questions about potentially bad behaviour?
Are corporations conspiring when they create cartels?
Is there a conspiracy by oil companies to spread disinformation?
Consider that short survey and then consider whether Lewandowski’s paper is worthy of publication prior to even considering the bad data, stats and apparent contradictions in data analysis.
Congratulations on having a blog where the commenters are seemingly much more pleasant than the blogger. How rare! I see why you don’t feel the need to censor posts. Others are not so fortunate.
Why, I often wonder, does anyone feel so much more smug in believing disaster is soon upon us? If the disaster to come was really that we increased energy prices to the extent that it killed the poor in large numbers, would they still be so smug? Would that be a price worth paying?
The problem is not who is right or left, it is who is right or wrong, because the cure may be a lot worse than the putative disease.
September 22, 2012 at 7:59 pm
Each of these claims are completely false. Something you could have verified yourself before making the claim.
A single person – a representative sample of 1 – made that comment at WUWT. Before I could even respond, other posters noted, accurately, that the claim was not true. The opportunity to leave a comment and or a name and email were clearly marked as OPTIONAL and VOLUNTARY.
The following appears at the end of the survey directly above the comment and information boxes:
There was no demand for information. There was an offer to provide same. The response rate to these voluntary and optional sections was very high with a majority of respondents leaving emails, and fully a third taking the time to leave, often detailed, comments.
I believe this is as strong signal as to the quality of the responses. Even more so supported by the detail and type comments made.
You are also wrong about the response. Unlike the pathetic effort of Lewandowsky – who clearly and intentionally gamed the dissemination of the survey with his failure to obtain responses on skeptics thru skeptical sites, I selected the single site with the largest readership and reach of essentially any other climate related site. And one with a predominant skeptic following.
It is transparently clear why Lewandowsky failed to undertake any concerted effort to reach the skeptic blogs, insure they had received and understood the request, and made any effort at outreach to secure their participation.
That said it is highly unlikely any of the skeptic sites would have cooperated – with the rampant bias clear in his long running advocacy for “the cause”, and considering his partnering with John Cook from Skeptical Science in that effort (and including him in another recent paper as a co-author) – any skeptic site would have easily seen his real intent and refused to participate.
This failure to obtain a response from skeptics, for a paper targeting skeptic belief systems, should have been a fatal flaw. That he went ahead anyway is laughable. That it allegedly passed peer review in a prestigious Journal is simply a sad testament to the lack of effort and ethics by what used to be the trustworthy pillars of science.
Instead of the non-effort by Lewandowsky, I actually investigated, thru Alexa reach and reputation rankings, each of the pro-AGW sites Lewandowsky used to collect the data, and each of the skeptic sites. His selection of those sites, especially the skeptic sites, was a literal joke. It is clear he made no effort to understand the web presence of these sites. Their Alexa rankings are from appx 150,000 to 1.5 million – lower numbers being better.
WUWT has an Alexa rank of just over 19,000 – of all websites in the world – and has over 6,000 links to it.
Despite your ridicule of WUWT (and there are non skeptics that post there with little trouble regularly) it has twice been awarded top Science and Technology Blog – against huge, well funded competition like TechCrunch, Engadget, Gizmodo and the like. He has also received a Lifetime Blog achievement award as best science and tech blog.
It is clear why I purposely chose WUWT. I asked for and received permission, and made a SINGLE guest post to announce the survey.
of effort and ethics by what used to be the trustworthy pillars of science.
Despite that post being made at appx 8pm on a Friday evening US Central time, within 72 hours the response had dwarfed the original survey. And a quick review of the responses indicated they were a high percentage skeptic oriented.
That was the other reason to choose the release time and day. By doing so over a weekend, and thru a single post at a single site, albeit with a very large readership, I believed we could minimize dissemination to and contamination from the rabid pro-AGW crowd. We have seen how they act – in posts regarding them scamming the Lewandoswsky survey a perfect example.
This was largely successful. There appears minimal contamination from initial quick review.
I have clearly stated my qualifications since I started. I am a layman – that got tired of those like Lewandowsky gaming the system.
The purpose of his study was clear – both the sensationalized title whose signature claim is effectively unsupported by the data, and was only selected to obtain maximum media visibility.
And his releasing the paper to the press, and promoting and publicizing it – claiming it was “in press” many months in advance of that actually occurring – if ever.
Those like Lewandowsky do considerable damage to the reputation and public respect for science. They are increasingly indifferent to climate change science for this very reason. And one of these days there will be an important finding we need to act on, and the public will ignore – thanks to the cause advocacy by those such as Lewandowsky et. al.
Despite being a layman, this isn’t rocket science. I used the exact same questions – which I;ve been repeatedly attacked for – even accused of plagiarism. Which I assume you well understand is ridiculous.
I used the same questions for two reason, because to re-create the work of Lewandowsky without doing so would be meaningless, but more importantly I used the same exact questions he took from others for the same reason Lewandowsky did, as he noted in the paper.
Because, terribly written or not (and its amazing to me that alleged experts in psychology can be as clueless as whomever created these questions) they are the standard question set used by many.
I made one single change to the survey. I thought long and hard about it, but for the reasons you noted, chose to make it a 5 point answer scale. As you well know a 4 point scale forces answers that often do not reflect the true feelings and beliefs of the respondent. It is – coupled with the horrible sentence structure etc of the questions – itself another way of gaming the response.
With the large sample size, we can likely afford to treat those neutral responses as non-responsive in the worst case and not use them. At least that way the 1-2 and 4-5 Agree and Disagree responses are accurate reflections of the respondents answers.
Instead of your rude and arrogant attacks – making accusations and claims without bothering, as here, to make the slightest effort to understand or check the accuracy, and since you appear to think the Lewandowsky work is substandard at least, and junk at worst, why don’t you become a part of the solution.
To start with – how about a power ranking … since Lewandowsky failed to do that either by all appearances. For you I’m sure its a relatively quick and simple analysis. How many responses are necessary to draw statistically relevant conclusions – on both the main hypotheses, but as important on the individual question correlations.
In particular how many responses are necessary for statical relevance regarding the headline title construct that skeptics belief the Moon Landing was fake also are motivated to reject climate science. I would also ask that same question for the correlation the authors claim was the real correlation they found – that skeptic belief the Moon Landing was fake were motivated to reject science
A simple project that shouldn’t take too much of your time – but would actually be helpful to the discussion.
September 22, 2012 at 10:06 pm
Wow, a man goes out to engage in a bit of beastman-slaughter and all hell breaks loose. A. Scott, I’ve edited your comment to include the correct paragraph you requested, and deleted the correction comment.
JamesG, the tone of a blog is primarily set by its owner. I don’t post daily claims of fraud and incompetence in a shrill tone, so it’s unsurprising that the tone here is a little higher than in the sewer over at CA. Though if you search around a bit on “war without mercy” or “tolkien and fascism” you might find yourself disappointed by a slightly lower tone.
A. Scott, your comment is a bit of a mouthful, but I’ll see what I can do. First, about the contact details. Of course I didn’t take your survey so I didn’t read the disclaimer, and I think it’s a good disclaimer – well done – but it wouldn’t pass muster with a lot of ethics committees. And the fact is that at least one person refused to answer your survey because of it. They said so, on WUWT. Surely other people didn’t bother posting to WUWT to inform you of this problem? Big bias? Unlikely. But an example of the problems one runs into in setting surveys, and why even the most innocuous-seeming requests can be nixed by an ethics committee. But here we run into a problem, because you won’t accept these kinds of explanations – you won’t accept that a researcher like Lewandowsky has to juggle a lot of different issues that are invisible to you when they set a survey, you just assume they’re a lying scumbag.
No, it is not. And any explanation you give at this point is going to be a conspiracy theory. Lewandowsky contacted five blogs, and sent them reminders. They refused to cooperate. What would you have had him do? What do you think were the conditions set on his behavior by the ethics committee? Have you asked him about any of these things?
I don’t pretend to know the reason Lewandowsky chose his particular sites, but I have a suspicion it might be because any attempt to publish a survey at WUWT would lead to such rabid and obvious gaming of the survey that he wouldn’t have been able to trust the results. Remember, this is a website that routinely deletes comments, changes their content, and runs a sock-puppet for one of the moderators. It’s a political project, not a science blog. If you think this is not true, you need to answer the question: where’s smokey? Who is smokey? You, as a reasoning human being concerned about stuff, should think about how much you’re being misled by the dishonest proprietor of that site. WUWT may be a popular blog, but anything its proprietor touches turns to shit, and that is not going to help Lewandowsky do science.
You do understand that this is not Lewandowsky’s intention? He needed data from both “skeptics” and “warmists”. You, on the other hand, don’t want “the rabid pro-AGW crowd” to “contaminate” your survey? You consider the opinions of anyone who doesn’t agree with you to be “contamination”? I think you should take a long, thoughtful look at how you view the world, the way you are dividing it into friends and enemies, and the language you are using, and perhaps reconsider your own objectivity.
Also, do you seriously believe that after the response to this paper in skeptic blogs, anyone is going to give an honest reply to the questions? Do you really think that skeptics who endorse conspiracy theories are going to go and report this on your survey? Knowing that any results which support such a relationship are opposed by all the skeptic bloggers? Your survey has been completely contaminated.
This is not my problem with 4 point scales. I actually think that using even numbered scales is a good idea. Giving ordinary people the opportunity to answer “don’t know/don’t care” is a recipe for invalidating 90% of your answers. You need to make people think about their answers, which means: short questions, with no ambiguity in the response values. And when replicating a survey, you really really need to use the same questions. Also – and this is something I am definitely guessing at – I have a suspicion that a lot of the questions Lewandowsky used, and/or the question structure, as well as the particular conspiracy theories he asked about, are “validated,” which means that they are a kind of gold standard for assessing certain ideas in cognitive science. By adding a 5th option, you’ve potentially deviated from the gold standard and invalidated all the answers. I don’t know, but I think this might be a possibility.
I understand your reasons for using a 5 point scale and I am aware that there is debate in the literature about the best scale. But you can’t replicate anything with even a single different question, and you may have invalidated all your work by so doing. Domain-specific knowledge is necessary to avoid these kinds of mistakes.
Here are a couple of titles from Climate Audit over the past few weeks:
That is rude and arrogant. Making accusations and claims without bothering to understand or check accuracy. Remember, this is the guy who claimed he hadn’t been contacted even before he had checked his email. This is the guy who, as I observe, completely misrepresents the email he received. That is rude and arrogant. So don’t lecture me on manners. Also, there is no problem and I don’t need to become a part of “the solution.”
Finally – and this is probably the most important part of my reply to you – you are straight out wrong about what is happening at WUWT. You say “there are non skeptics that post there with little trouble regularly” but this is just not true. People commented here and on my other post to report having been censored, and it’s a common topic of conversation at Tamino et al. Look at my post on the matter: I pointed out that he was wrong on a date by 10 years, and he deleted all further discussion of the issue. His claim of UHI effects in the Antarctic was shown to be laughably wrong by someone who had been on the station: Watts was presenting a picture of a completely different site from a completely different part of the Antarctic from 30 years ago, and refused to accept his mistake or update his post. He routinely deletes critics, and his site’s moderator runs a sockpuppet who is used to attack and discredit people who disagree with Watts.
This is not honest debate. Watts is not a Gallilean revolutionary and he is not fighting for the truth. You are being lied to and manipulated, but you can’t see when Tamino or I post comments there that are deleted, or when we demand Watts correct an egregious error in a post you aren’t reading. You are being lied to by dishonest operators who do not have your best interests at heart.
September 22, 2012 at 10:36 pm
I’ve just deleted a comment by foxgoose, my angry response, and a further comment by foxgoose. This blog is about role-playing games, fantasy and sci-fi. If you don’t like those topics, you’re welcome to go elsewhere. If you want to comment on topics unrelated to those matters, you need to show respect for the main theme of this blog and for the people who use it.
The tone of debate here is taking a decidedly unpleasant turn, and I’m not going to encourage things to degenerate further. I’m not going to be allowing nasty comments, and I’m not going to be giving any more commentary on the Lewandowsky paper. Further nasty comments here will see the whole post and thread deleted. My blog is intended to be about RPGs and sci-fi/fantasy, with occasional excursions into science or healthcare when it interests me. I’m not interested in adversarial debate of the kind promoted by foxgoose, and I’m not interested in debates that become personal. I’m certainly not going to host comments insulting my main audience or the main reason for the blog’s existence, and I’m not going to see the main focus of this blog derailed by the kind of rudeness evidenced by foxgoose.
September 23, 2012 at 12:02 am
To me the problems with the survey are blatantly obvious without any analysis of the statistical methods used. The questions were ludicrous and many people reported they had started the survey but abandoned it midway because they felt they could not answer the questions without lying. Lewandowsky did not distribute his survey equally to the various sites, but sent different versions of it to different sites. The results were being discussed before having been collected. If the purpose is to find out what skeptics think, it makes no sense to send the survey mostly to climate alarmist sites, and it makes no sense not to try to send it to the most visited skeptic site — unless you are doing it on purpose. If that weren’t enough, and it’s plenty, the title of the paper is the opposite of what the results show. Some defenders tried to explain this away by referring to it as harmless banter. But Lewandowsky offered a truly ludicrous explanation.
As I posted before at WUWT, the quote below from Lewandowsky can ONLY come from someone who is very consciously pulling the leg of his readers:
http://www.shapingtomorrowsworld.org/lewandowskySEM.html
Now you know why the title of our paper was “NASA faked the moon landing—Therefore (Climate) Science is a Hoax: An Anatomy of the Motivated Rejection of Science.” We put the “(climate)” in parentheses before “science” because the association between conspiracist ideation and rejection of science was greater for the other sciences than for climate science.
We are being told that the parenthesis around climate act as an exclusionary mechanism. We are being told that parenthetical marks take away precisely what they supply. The guy is clearly trolling.
Lewandowsky has no business expecting anyone to take his paper seriously after going out of his way to show how worthless it is by the nature of the questions themselves, the way the survey was distributed, and comments such as the above that prove beyond doubt he is either pulling everyone’s leg, or he is a completely deranged person. Take your pick.
I find it appalling that anyone, regardless of their views on the climate issues, can have the stomach to defend such a piece of garbage with a straight face. To me, it only shows that many climate alarmists have long stopped giving a damn about the scientific aspect of this endless debate. Read the quotes below by Mike Hulme, read them carefully, and it becomes clear what this is all about.
http://buythetruth.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/climate-change-and-the-death-of-science/
[…]
Mike Hulme, founding director of the Tyndall Centre, and Professor of Climate Change at the University of East Anglia (UEA) […] Hulme has been a champion and exponent of post-normal science for some years to serve his own socialist agenda, and this is what he has to say about post-normal science (some italics added):
Quotes:
…‘self-evidently’ dangerous climate change will not emerge from a normal scientific process of truth-seeking…scientists – and politicians – must trade truth for influence. What matters about climate change is not whether we can predict the future with some desired level of certainty and accuracy.
Climate change is telling the story of an idea and how that idea is changing the way in which our societies think, feel, interpret and act. And therefore climate change is extending itself well beyond simply the description of change in physical properties in our world…
The function of climate change I suggest, is not as a lower-case environmental phenomenon to be solved…It really is not about stopping climate chaos. Instead, we need to see how we can use the idea of climate change – the matrix of ecological functions, power relationships, cultural discourses and materials flows that climate change reveals – to rethink how we take forward our political, social, economic and personal projects over the decades to come.
There is something about this idea that makes it very powerful for lots of different interest groups to latch on to, whether for political reasons, for commercial interests, social interests in the case of NGOs, and a whole lot of new social movements looking for counter culture trends.
Climate change has moved from being a predominantly physical phenomenon to being a social one…It is circulating anxiously in the worlds of domestic politics and international diplomacy, and with mobilising force in business, law, academia, development, welfare, religion, ethics, art and celebrity.
Climate change also teaches us to rethink what we really want for ourselves…mythical ways of thinking about climate change reflect back to us truths about the human condition…
The idea of climate change should be seen as an intellectual resource around which our collective and personal identifies and projects can form and take shape. We need to ask not what we can do for climate change, but to ask what climate change can do for us…Because the idea of climate change is so plastic, it can be deployed across many of our human projects and can serve many of our psychological, ethical, and spiritual needs.
…climate change has become an idea that now travels well beyond its origins in the natural sciences…climate change takes on new meanings and serves new purposes…climate change has become “the mother of all issues”, the key narrative within which all environmental politics – from global to local – is now framed…Rather than asking “how do we solve climate change?” we need to turn the question around and ask: “how does the idea of climate change alter the way we arrive at and achieve our personal aspirations…?”
We need to reveal the creative psychological, spiritual and ethical work that climate change can do and is doing for us…we open up a way of resituating culture and the human spirit…As a resource of the imagination, the idea of climate change can be deployed around our geographical, social and virtual worlds in creative ways…it can inspire new artistic creations in visual, written and dramatised media. The idea of climate change can provoke new ethical and theological thinking about our relationship with the future….We will continue to create and tell new stories about climate change and mobilise these stories in support of our projects. Whereas a modernist reading of climate may once have regarded it as merely a physical condition for human action, we must now come to terms with climate change operating simultaneously as an overlying, but more fluid, imaginative condition of human existence.
September 23, 2012 at 12:15 am
Francisco, do you have references for any of those quotes?
September 23, 2012 at 12:35 am
Mike Hulme wrote those things in his book: Why We Disagree About Climate Change
http://www.amazon.com/Disagree-About-Climate-Change-Understanding/dp/0521727324
September 23, 2012 at 12:37 am
Did he really, or are you lifting those quotes out of context from other sites? When I see them on other sites I see a lot of ellipses …
September 23, 2012 at 1:46 am
I haven’t read the book and don’t intend to, but the quotes most definitely come from it. From the Amazon reviews you also get the drift pretty well. He is supposed to be a climate scientist, but is not really concerned with the science. The book is about the plasticity and usefulness of the idea of climate change, and he makes no bones acknowleging that the science behind it is irrelevant to this supposedly greater task. He has acknowledged, in the book and elsewhere, http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/27/uea-climate-scientist-possible-that-i-p-c-c-has-run-its-course/
that the IPCC is fundamentally a political organization, not a scientific one, with a clearly established goal of promoting a pre-conceived conclusion, and has suggested it may have “run its course”. From the above post come these quotes:
Quotes:
The key lesson to be learned is that not only must scientific knowledge about climate change be publicly owned — the I.P.C.C. does a fairly good job of this according to its own terms — but the very practices of scientific enquiry must also be publicly owned, in the sense of being open and trusted. [wouldn’t that be nice!] From outside, and even to the neutral, the attitudes revealed in the emails do not look good. To those with bigger axes to grind it is just what they wanted to find. [maybe, but I don’t need any axe to grind to realize this science has become very corrupted and that what it produces cannot be trusted; I am myself diametrically opposed to many of the prevailing political ideas by commenters at WUWT, but I am even more seriously put off by the persistent distraction emerging from unjustified and mendacious climate alarmism]
[…]
[Upcoming UN climate conference in Copenhagen] “is about raw politics, not about the politics of science. […] It is possible that climate science has become too partisan, too centralized. The tribalism that some of the leaked emails display is something more usually associated with social organization within primitive cultures; it is not attractive when we find it at work inside science. It is also possible that the institutional innovation that has been the I.P.C.C. has run its course. Yes, there will be an AR5 but for what purpose? The I.P.C.C. itself, through its structural tendency to politicize climate change science, has perhaps helped to foster a more authoritarian and exclusive form of knowledge production – just at a time when a globalizing and wired cosmopolitan culture is demanding of science something much more open and inclusive.
September 23, 2012 at 7:18 am
Your comments about moderation at another blog are – no other way to say it – juvenile. I ran the largest online forum in its class, with over 3 million posts, and with a highly divided reader base, for a decade. I have seen and experienced everything you can imagine. Ironically the worst serial offender was a highly placed psych professor at a US institution, who stalked the forum and its members for years.
The moderation at WUWT is some of the fairest around. I have seen extremely negative and critical comments from many participants. If you post in a relatively civil and rational tone there you have little problem.
Your claim it is not a science blog simply shows you are not a regular reader.The site has won multiple best Science and Tech blog awards and a lifetime achievement award against huge well funded competitors like TechCrunch, Engadget, Gizmodo and the like. That doesn’t occur if you aren’t regularly talking about science.
Anthony Watts is also the person who created the hug surface stations project. And who has written several peer reviewed papers.
There is also a reason it is one of the most widely read climate blogs in the world. There is no other climate blog I’m aware of with a ranking remotely close You don’t get an Alexa ranking – especially with a site that represents a minority opinion – by being grossly unfair as you claim.
As to the claim a member – heaven forbid – was also a moderator. This occurs at virtually every single site in the world – both professional and volunteer run. No site expects a member to give up the right to comment as a member, in order to take on the thankless task of moderator. Most do provide a separate username for them posting as moderators for the very reason you show – so actions as moderator and posts as members are separate.
I had more than 30 moderators – with each and every one a member actively posting. And each could overrule any other – which insured fairness. Just as with WUWT we were constantly accused by a small group of the same things you complain about – but never would have reached the size we (or WUWT) has if the comments were largely true. .
As you note – the tone, and moderation, of a site are set by the owner. That you complain about WUWT while deleting posts outright here is humorous.
Your writings on this show you put your personal animosity at being moderated – which IMO was well deserved by the tone and attitude of your posts – we are all guests in others “homes” – guests who are unpleasant when they walk in the door are given little latitude.
Your responses seem clearly biased by your animosity. A poor reflection in my opinion on someone ostensibly a professional in the field.You could have lent much valuable insight, but you seem to busy being offended and/or hurt by the response to your poor behavior to actually contribute.
This is the real world – not role playing – and actions have consequences – yo can’t just hit ‘reset’ – you are responsible for and ‘own’ your behavior.
As to Lewandowsky’s site selection – it IS quite clear he made no concerted effective effort. I and others have already noted the many problems. Knowing the likely hurdle to participation he made no attempt to first, even insure they received the offer, let alone understood it.
Skeptic sites:
The Climate Audit site ranking is 120,529 in the world.
Climate Depot 171,264
Robert Pielke Jr. 824,920
Roy Spencer 339,384
Science and Public Policy Institute 1,582,211
Pro-AGW sites
skepticalscience.com 134,429
tamino.wordpress.com 270,164
hot-topic.co.nz/ 1,853,530
profmandia.wordpress.com/ 4,892,738
bbickmore.wordpress.com 7,828,532
scienceblogs.com/deltoid/ unable to rank
scienceblogs.com/illconsidered/ unable to rank
http://www.trunity.net/uuuno/blogs/ unable to rank
And yes – Lewandowsky WAS contacted right up front, about several things including selection of the skeptic blogs and requests for information to try and make sense of the paper. His responses are shown on his blog. His arrogance and conceit in responses to simple legitimate questions and later posts are what escalated this matter.
When the paper came out and contained the comment that 5 skeptic blogs had been contacted but failed to respond, the main, most active group of skeptic blogs each noted a check of their files showed no contact from Lewandowsky. So they asked – who did you contact? They even each provided – in public – direct authorization for their names to be released. Lewandowsky responded with derision and taunts.
The facts were he did not contact anyone – his assistant did. A far different search than for “Lewandowsky” – “Hanich” was not one they would have known to try. Lewandowsky taunted further – while allegedly waiting for his ethic committee approval – posting alleged “tips” to search – on the virulently anti-skeptic Desmogblog.
Instead of a simple private email to each of the sites contacted – with a copy of the email, or at least date, time and contact info, so they could find it – which would have addressed the entire situation simply and professionally – he goaded and taunted those who dared question him.
That is something the ethics committee should deal with before this is over.
September 23, 2012 at 7:33 am
Faustusnotes, thank you for for your comment at #25 and for keeping the discussion here open.
“Certainly, AGW “skepticism” is primarily an online community, …”
I would argue that “most” people who are “skeptical” of AGW are not part of an online community.
Margaret Zimmerman wrote the masters thesis from which originated the quote that 97% of Climate Scientists agree with AGW. She issued individual invitations to 10,257 Earth Scientists asking them to complete what appears to be a well disciplined online survey.
Zimmerman also invited the scientists to contribute any comments or questions they may have and these have been included in this thesis.
The statistical results are interesting but what I found really surprising and compelling were the comments from the Earth Scientists.
There is an article about the statistical results in EOS Jan 2009 I think written by both Zimmerman and her supervisor Doran(?). The Zimmerman thesis with the comments is also online.
Faustusnotes, the comments from the Earth Scientists provide an insight into
a way of looking at AGW that may be quite different to how you see it. In my own experience I see my family and friends who work in the fields of medical/healthsciences/socialsciences have an intense passionate view of AGW; those in engineering/geology/meteorology are far more blase. And that’s why I started reading the IPCC WG1 to trying to understand how these groups could take such a differing views.
It was one of your commenters above, Paul who described his reason for changing his view “… it was largely a matter of trust of authors, more than understanding the detailed analysis …” and for those of us not well acquainted with science it can come down to this. Thanks again for the opportunity to participate in a pleasant forum.
September 23, 2012 at 10:13 am
Carrie, thanks for the comments on Zimmerman. Scientists are obviously easy to survey, but I think Lewandowsky is aiming at understanding non-scientists. And while you are probably right that most people who are skeptical of AGW are not part of an online community, I think Lewandowsky might have been interested in the activist ones, who probably are.
A Scott, I think this site puts comments with three or more links into the moderation queue sometimes. I’m not going to bother going over the wheres-and-whys of the Lewandowsky paper and its associated controversy (that’s not what this post was meant to be about) because it’s covered pretty thoroughly in all possible permutations of views from both sides out there on other blogs.
Your comments on moderation are noted. I comment regularly and widely on a number of blogs, and have done for years, and many of them have easily had as big a comment rate as WUWT, and I’ve never experienced the random deletion and delays that I’ve seen since I commented at WUWT and CA. I understand that managing an online community the size of WUWT’s is a challenge, but I’ve never seen it done in such an intensive way before. But I don’t think we’re going to agree on that, so shall we leave it at that? If you’re interested in seeing the kind of disagreement that I allow here unmoderated, btw, check the threads on Tolkien and fascism. I think it’s safe to say this blog doesn’t shy away from debate, but personally threatening behavior and insults to the entire readership of the blog are a different thing altogether.
I’ll note that now the CA folks are posting up photos of me from years ago, taken from my google plus (that I didn’t even know I had). That doesn’t seem like the kind of behavior good moderation encourages, and I’m not going to be going near any climate-related websites from now on, and I’m glad I don’t live in the same country as 99.9% of the people who post on these sites, because it’s creepy behaviour.
Your points on sample selection are interesting. I wonder if this is another aspect of research into online communities that is generally poorly understood. What is the gold standard for defining a site’s popularity, how do you define sites in and out of an online “community”? Should sites be sampled like physical sampling units? I wonder if the people researching online communities have much experience researching real, physical communities, and how much of the theory is transferrable. Certainly your argument on the basis of Alexa figures is persuasive, but maybe Alexa isn’t considered the gold standard? Or maybe there was some other reason for inclusion/exclusion (such as judgments about the “seriousness” of debate, or the likelihood of corruption through editorializing?) I don’t know, but if it’s not covered in the online supplement or the main paper then I would agree with you that the site selection was borked.
Oh and sorry, I agree with you, WUWT is a science blog and it was silly of me to say it’s not. Just because it gets the science wrong doesn’t mean it’s not a science blog!
Francisco, there are a lot of ellipses in those quotes. I would check the originals for misrepresentation.
September 23, 2012 at 10:13 am
I’ll add: I’m travelling for a few days now and will be only checking internet intermittently, so don’t expect responses very rapidly if at all.
September 23, 2012 at 12:41 pm
I’ve sent this comment about “conspiracy theories” several hours ago but it hasn’t shown up. I am sending it again.
The phrase “conspiracy theory,” which is at the center of the Lewandosky piece, is a loaded term to discredit notions one disagrees with. It has been honed to perfection for this task. Let’s take a couple of trivial examples from very recent new, and then one about climate change.
Recently there have been some protests in Hungary. Some of them — relatively small — were anti-government, and these were followed with enormous fervor by the Western media, especially in Europe. Then there was a huge demonstration many times the size of the others, in support of the government’s protectionist policies (like taxes on multinational corporations and foreign banks) which have so infurated the invading capital. That was not covered at all.
A few days ago, former US president Jimmy Carter said that of the more than 90 election his Carter Center had monitored around the world, Venezuela seems to have the best run and transparent election system. He also said the US election system is one of the worst he has seen. http://www.globalatlanta.com/article/25788/
The story was carefully ignored by all the main press, at least in the US.
I am asking: Are those conspiracy theories the way I am presenting them? I don’t care what you call them. They are what they are.
Now let’s move to climate science.
Around 2007, when climate alarmism rose to spectacular levels, the late science historian David F. Noble wrote an article about that phenomenon titled “The Corporate Climate Coup”. The second paragraph reads:
http://activistteacher.blogspot.ca/2007/05/dgr-in-my-article-entitled-global.html
How did we get here? How did such an arcane subject only yesterday of interest merely to a handful of scientific specialists so suddenly come to dominate our discourse? How did scientific speculation so swiftly erupt into ubiquitous intimations of apocalypse? These are not hypothetical questions but historical questions, and they have answers. Such events as these do not just happen; they are made to happen. On the whole our ideas tend not to be our own ideas; rarely do we come up with them ourselves but rather imbibe them from the world around us. This is especially obvious when our ideas turn out to be the same as nearly everyone else’s, even people we’ve never met or communicated with. Where did this idea about the urgent crisis of global warming and CO2 emissions come from and get into our heads, given that so few of us have ever read, or even tried to read, a single scientific paper about greenhouse gases? Answering such a question is not as difficult as it might seem, for the simple reason that it takes a great amount of reach and resources to place so alien an idea in so many minds simultaneously so quickly, and the only possessors of such capacity and means are the government and the corporations, together with their multi-media machinery. To effect such a significant shift in attention, perception, and belief requires a substantial, and hence visible and demonstrable, effort.”
================
To illustrate the above, look at this list of links to news items starting around that time:
http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/warmlist.htm
How did all those researchers and writers in hundreds of different fields suddenly get the idea that it might be good for them to tie their field of inquiry to global warming in some way? Did it happen by chance? Or did it happen because they quickly got the drift that their chances of getting research grant money and publishing their stuff might increase significantly if they did so?
More specifically now: Why is a psychology professor in a remote university making a career out of the promotion of man-made climate change alarmism with totally ludicrous internet surveys about moon landings and an outrageous title that gets splashed all over the news? Why is he taken seriously? Why are apparently intelligent people defending this kind of nonsense?
Again, how do these things happen? Is there a concerted effort to make them happen or do they just happen by coincidence?
September 23, 2012 at 12:49 pm
I’m a skeptic and I’ve often had to wait for comments to appear or never appear at McIntyre’s blog. It’s not uncommon to read comments at ClimateAudit from chagrined people regarding those issues. (usually skeptics, most of his visitors are)
I believe from your update you have since become aware of these issues.
So you see it’s easy for us all to play this game “oh the irony, they complained about censorship but…” or “talk about conspiracy theories, faustusnotes reckons the the ‘deniers’ are out to get him because his comment didn’t appear”.
It’s easy and pointless – moderation has issues, as does free access; on the latter especially where contentious issues are concerned.
Isn’t Lewandowsky’s paper more pertinent?
Though you insist on treating it as a side issue,will write some comments about it after slaying goblins, tehe. *groan*
September 23, 2012 at 1:04 pm
I have comments stuck in moderation at times at both WUWT and CA … they are large sites with small staffs … and often other issues are more important
When moderating know “good” posters often get an automatic “OK” while unknown or problematic ones are left for when time permits.
The best solution is don’t be a problematic one. If you can’t say it at least relatively civilly you shouldn’t say it at all.
September 23, 2012 at 1:18 pm
I’ll also commend you here for your more civil response – and for your comments at CA … there are many worthwhile issues to be addressed – and problems to be solved – and cooperation is always a positive even among differing opinions
September 23, 2012 at 1:19 pm
Faustusnotes, hello again.
Had a quick look for a source of info about statistics that might be accessible to 🙂 members of the great unwashed such as myself 🙂 and I found Statlit.org.
It looks interesting. There seems to be a serious part and part popularising/introducing statistics but I am unable to determine its “authority”, who runs it, would you know? Is it worth using?
Further to “what shall not be named” (and quite understandably so) whilst I was looking for helpful statistics sites the search I made with google linked to a recent (08/12) article at the British Psychological Society entitled
“Made it! An uncanny number of psychology findings manage to scrape into statistical significance.”
Now this together with statslit.org and your earlier comments could bring some useful insights to the 🙂 motguwsam 🙂 .
oops and I need to put in the link bps-research-digest-blogspot.ca/2012/08/phew-made-it-how-uncanny-proportion-of.html This time I have to say thanks for your patience, slainte!
September 24, 2012 at 2:41 am
faustus, I’m waiting for you to graciously admit that your title is misleading or simply wrong. Can you point to a comment of yours that got caught in automatic moderation on climateaudit that did not eventually make it through the peer review process?
Otherwise I would describe your title as knowingly misleading.’
Regarding this: Unfortunately, traffic from there has now been directed here, and Mcintyre and his mate RomanM are starting to play games with my identity
To be fair, you didn’t make your identity very hard to find, and when somebody is troll-baiting like you were on CA, it’s a natural curiosity to try and figure out what that person knows. If a person is troll-baiting, I usually taken that as admission of intellectual weakness, otherwise you’d assume “voice of authority” and just bitch-slap people down rather than using an ad hominem-based approach.
Anyway, f you have anything to be embarrassed about in what you’ve written, the cure is not to write things to be embarrassed about.
A Scott: When moderating know “good” posters often get an automatic “OK” while unknown or problematic ones are left for when time permits.
I don’t think that’s it. Frequent posters to any blog knows what words to avoid to getting automatically placed in moderation, and how far we can go without getting a comment rejected or snipped. I’ve had comments rejected/snipped before. Sometimes the comments get snagged by different filters (like spam filters) and you have to write the blog author to get him to release it.
None of that suggests preferential behavior.
One of the blogs I frequently post on, Lucia’s blog, I’ve probably been bitch-slapped more than any other person there.
September 24, 2012 at 8:22 am
While the maintenance of CA appears idiosyncratic, none of my comments get accepted on CA a bit after WordPress changed the way it deals with the logins. After having spent too much time configuring a WP account to no avail, I gave up. And considering the significance of the current debates, I can’t say I mind much.
The misplacement problem seems a WordPress glitch: when the root of a comment gets cut, the leaves appear at a random place in the thread.
Hoping A. Scott has time to sleep, eat, and shower these days,
God damn it, you’ve got to be kind,
w
September 24, 2012 at 5:28 pm
Carrick, how can I troll-bait a thread that starts with a title comparing deletion of comments to a pogrom? Mcintyre had godwinned himself before he even started the post.
Carrie, I’ll check out statlit. An unfortunate side point of all debate about this Lewandowsky article is that while the stats he used are quite straightforward, they are (due to their reliance on mathematical methods from both stats and the field of algebra) quite difficult to explain to lay people, which makes the debate obscure and also enables people to feel easily that they’re having a fast one pulled on them. Furthermore, it’s my strong personal belief that there is a great deal of art involved in good stats modeling, and this is nowhere more true than for factor analysis – I’ll have more to say about this in a post. Factor analysis is actually an area of stats that I think can be very powerful but has a reputation for being a highly manipulable part of the toolbox. This means a dispute about methods can easily come to seem like someone you disagree with is trying to pull a fast one – as I will show, I think.
Paul, I think you commented on the wrong thread so I’ve moved your comment to the other thread. I was tempted to add a link to a Che Guevara appreciation website as punishment, but I restrained myself.
RyanS, I’ve made a peace offering to climate audit in which I will analyze the Lewandowsky data the way I would have done it, and will put that analysis up here today or tomorrow. I’m just finalizing an explanatory analysis and then it’s ready, but writing my stats posts takes ages because of table formatting, and I have a hideous case of man-flu, which is slowing me down.
September 24, 2012 at 6:58 pm
Nope, my comment went here. It was in reply to post 14 by Peter T.
September 24, 2012 at 9:25 pm
@Peter T:
”Why tribalism? I said “liberalism” – not left-wing (economics is mostly rightish liberal).”
You said liberalism, but contrasted it with “the right”. See ”Liberals start from the basic position that all people are equal and equally rational, so they have more trouble using these excuses than the right.” It did occur to me that you didn’t mean liberal = left wing, which is why I included a paragraph on that possibility that then dismissed the left/right angles.
It appears we agree that liberal isn’t strictly left/right and you just lacked a good antonym for liberal. *shrug*.
”But the right (for lack of a better term) in general, from social darwinism and fascism through to moderate Burkean conservatism, does not believe both that all people are equal and that people are equally rational.”
I’ve got to disagree. There is only one political ideology that believes people are completely rational. It’s neo-liberalism as seen in it’s economic assumptions. Every other ideology (including all social liberal ones that support market intervention) believe that people’s rationality is limited or asymmetric (i.e. that poor people aren’t smart enough to avoid poor economic decisions).
This isn’t to say that neo-liberalism is “good” or anything like that. I just disagree with your stated detail.
”But claiming that people are unequal, and that this justifies differential political treatment”
But this is an assumption built into positive discrimination. It’s an assumption that people are fundamentally equal in rights, but not equal in capacity due to external factors. Stacks of other ideologies agree on that (including libertarianism). Fundamental equality just means everyone’s got the same rights, not the same capacity.
I do suspect that we’re on the same page re: tribalism.
”BTW, “blaming the victim” does not mean that they are not blameworthy. My statement was about psychology, not morality.”
Agreed.
@Faustus
”Paul, did you really have a lecturer who described all of a dozen political philosophies as left wing?”
Yes. The extracts that I can recall were Marxism, anarchism, liberalism and fascism. There multiple extracts that boiled down to socialism in various forms (though I don’t recall any of them being from Stalin). It turns out right-wingers are Nazis.
”Was your lecturer left wing? His/her definitions seem a tad … overdone.”
A little bit. I actually queried her later on lack of balance in her course. She claimed that she was trying to get audience feedback/discussion. I will not that there was no audience feedback in any lecture, it was never invited and this was (from memory) a first year course (so not one with the type of people you’d expect to push back on it).
September 27, 2012 at 6:20 pm
Phil,
To answer your question, I believe Smokey is now posting under D Böehm. He seems to have appeared on WUWT shortly after Smokey’s disappearance, and tends to post in a very similar manner.
April 10, 2013 at 6:00 am
Hiya,
I saw a link to this post and got curious. I am one of the volunteer admins at CA so I was able to check your claims against reality.
Reality:
* You have not been banned, ever.
* Your posts are not singled out for moderation in any way (in case it is not obvious, CA does not auto-moderate)
* Any issues you experience at CA are the simple result of the WordPress.com system functioning the way it does, combined with an embarrassing lack of resources to keep the queue cleared.
I don’t blame you for your visceral reaction. Beating our fists against robots can be incredibly frustrating! And the lack of moderators at CA is embarrassing at times.
(I’m also curious, because I never saw what happened… and you tied the “exposure” of your photo/etc to some kind of Google+ account… were your photos part of somebody’s comment, or in the corner of your comment? The post-corner photo system is Yet Another Robot in WP.com)
April 10, 2013 at 8:05 am
Thanks for taking the time to comment here MrPete, even though this is all ancient history, but I’m sorry to say I don’t believe you. The first person on that thread to raise my identity was McIntyre, and he did so in a sly way that was clearly intended as a signal to me that further dispute would see me outed. That’s what his commenters then did – and no they didn’t put a photo in the corner of my comment – someone posted up a picture of me and a link to others, with sneering comments about my appearance. McIntyre only deleted them after I offered to do the Lewandowsky post in exchange.
Given this clear and deliberate attempt to drive me away, and given McIntyre is known for his internet dishonesty (e.g. sock-puppeting as Nigel Persaud), I really have no reason to believe you. I now stay away from your site, because I don’t want the thugs who comment there having anything to do with me, and I think this is exactly the way the denialosphere likes it.
April 11, 2013 at 5:00 am
Again, methinks you may be reading too much into what you’ve seen or heard. I just asked Steve about this sock-puppeting, which I’ve never seen (I first connected six years ago in 2007.) I then did a bit of date-based googling. The sock puppeting took place well before I was around CA. Steve had never heard of the term at the time and didn’t know it was a bad thing. (He was not alone among climate commenters in this; not hard to find a similar Halpern == Rabbett post referencing his own work w/o revealing the connection.) Steve’s never done it since, which is probably why I never heard about it.
Steve *does* lose his cool on occasion, but that’s increasingly rare. And he does his best to set a reasonable tone for moderation (when it is needed). Yes, some topics are guaranteed to be chopped. Religion 100%, politics 95+%. Doesn’t matter who (even me, who helped set up the current site.) (I’m one of those who quietly encouraged him to avoid heated/offensive language… and IMHO he’s done an admirable job of heading in that direction. Independent of your opinion on the actual topic, people usually seem to think he comes across cool as a cucumber in most situations. Maybe that’s because his actual perspective is not “denialist” nor “conservative”…I dunno.)
I wasn’t there for the demeaning commentary. Just looked; I won’t dispute your perspective; you appear to have a disagreement with Steve as to why he linked to your own work. I’m not certain that he — nor anyone for that matter (other than people like those I serve in hard parts of the world whose lives are literally on the line) — really can be certain of what is the “correct” way to handle alias vs real identities. For whom is the alias an important protection, and for whom is it more of a fun “brand”? My thought is always to find a way to respect the wishes of the person involved. (Hmmm… I wonder if there’s a simple way to tag aliases in terms of “this is important to me” vs “this is fun”… kinda like the Geek Code?!) Me, I could never hide. I’ve been online too long, having registered domain #42 🙂
If you browse the site, even right now, you’ll find that the “thugs” are pretty graciously interacting with a variety of people from all sides of the Marcott study. FWIW, I do encourage you to return.
Blessings,
Pete
April 11, 2013 at 11:05 am
Thanks for replying, MrPete. I’m happy for you that you are able to temper the climate over there, and I did notice on a recent visit that Steve had acted to try to stop a “pile on,” but sadly it’s too late for me. I’ve been blogging for about 7 years now, 5 on this blog, and I’ve attracted my share of stoushes here, but I’ve never seen anyone try to out me or send me personalized threats until I dipped my toe in the climate change pond. The heat has recently been turned up on my personal life by someone from your neck of the woods, so I’m making a commitment not to have any more contact of any kind with climate change websites, on either side of the debate. Regardless of what you may feel, I now have first-hand evidence of the trouble that can come from pointing out that one of your collaborators is wrong (even when he admits it!) and I’m not going there again.
As for the issue of how to handle anonymity, I’m surprised that you’re admin for a site like CA and you don’t have a clearer position on this issue. While I accept that people have different reasons for anonymity, it’s not hard to assume that their reasons are valid regardless. Unmasking people’s anonymity is at best a form of harrassment (like criticizing a stranger’s clothing) and at worst a direct threat. If you doubt this, then ask yourself how often you see someone being outed by someone they agree with, compared to the frequency with which it is used as an attack against people on the other side of a disagreement. It’s a tool to stifle dissent, and I notice particularly that it is used in the climate debate, and I would argue on only one side of it (though it makes no difference to my opinion of how scummy outing someone is if this underhand technique is used on both sides).
I have a strict privacy policy on this blog, and I try to enforce it (I have been required to in the past, believe it or not). If you want to make your website a genuine site for debate and dissent (from all sides) then I suggest you copy it (you might want to change the language though), promote it and enforce it. A lot of fairly basic mistakes get made at CA, and I think there are a lot of people who would engage with the writers and improve the quality of the posts there, but – like me – they aren’t going to go near it if they think they’re going to get rough treatment in their private lives. I’m not one of those people, though – I’ve seen as much as I need to know of what passes for “debate” on AGW, and I’m not participating further.
If, however, you have anything to add to the world of fantasy role-playing, you’re welcome to stick around here and comment more!
April 12, 2013 at 1:23 am
I’m clear about not taking advantage of private information to expose anybody. Period. However, such cases are incredibly rare in the blogosphere. In my experience, blogists (?) who are exposed have made the mistake at some point of publishing too much info. I have helped hundreds of people work through the challenge of attempting to regain some sense of privacy. It’s an incredibly painful task, as apparently you are discovering.
Good luck on that. I do recommend that you take time to reflect on how you’ve processed various information sources. Without getting into any argumentation over any particular topic, my observation is that you too easily assume your knowledge of things, and too easily accept information that comports with what you already believe. That can lead to various kinds of blindnesses. I understand completely: it’s a hard habit for me to change as well!
And with that, I’ll sign off. I used to be a fantasy role-play guy wayyyy back, but quickly learned that the real world is more than enough to absorb my life. I have friends and relatives who I’ll send this way however 🙂
April 12, 2013 at 1:23 am
(Oops, that was supposed to say “have typically made the mistake…”)