In briefly surfing through the Paizo messageboards I stumbled upon this highly contentious doozy of a thread: Is torturing intelligent undead an evil action? The resulting thread is a microcosm of the murky debates that surround good and evil in a game that recreates a moral universe radically different from our own, but my position falls on the side of the anti-religionists everywhere: Paladins, while good in the framework of the game, are your classic evil bastard when viewed through the prism of modern morality. One commenter sums up the perverted morality of the Paladin quite nicely on the first page:
It’s also hypocrisy like that, that causes no one to feel bad at all when a Paladin bites the dust
Yep, count me in with that position.
Of course, in a world of intelligent undead and actually evil gods, the Paladin’s vengeful “goodness” suddenly makes perfect sense. We should all say a prayer of thanks to the Flying Spaghetti Monster every morning we wake up and find ourselves not in that world.
From a DMing perspective though,the thread raises one interesting question: how to handle players who lie during torture. The OP claims that
The party melee unceremoniously decapitated the magus the same way they had his vampiric predecessor. (The players lied and said they would spare him if he sold his master out)
I hate it when players do this, because you have to act your way through a situation where they get the information and don’t have to worry about a prisoner or potentially vengeful future enemy. Also, realistically it’s the only way you can trust the information you receive from torture: if a prisoner knows they’re going to die they’ll just fess up any old shit as quickly as possible to avoid another round of burnt-poker-rogerings. When players then do the coup-de-grace anyway, it’s like a cheap exit clause for them with no penalty.
So I came up with a new rule that I carry across all campaigns: players can use the old “promise them their freedom if they tell the truth but then kill them anyway” routine, but if they do it repeatedly they’ll get a kind of nasty light in their eyes that every enemy will recognize: the “I don’t really mean these platitudes I’m telling you” light. Once this light gets in their eyes, torture becomes permanently useless. I tell my players this early on, and from then on they only use this technique very sparingly, when they’re in desperate straits (i.e. really can’t risk letting the guy go) or the torturee is really so evil that slaughtering them is a favour to the universe, and lying to them beforehand just the icing on the cake.
This rule, I have found, makes players much more willing to find alternatives to torture when they deal with low level minions, and much more aware that every person they let go may be a knife in their back later, or an evil they haven’t slain. It also makes torture and taking prisoners a much more complex undertaking.
But in either case, I don’t think I’ve ever run a campaign world where undead can be tortured. Except maybe vampires. The rest of them will just laugh it off and sneer at the players as they refuse to blab. If you want to find their secrets, you have to dig a little more carefully than severing a few digits and casting a few cure light wounds. They’re liches, not mercenaries with a skin problem!
July 23, 2012 at 11:33 am
If torturing intelligent undead is wrong, then what does that say about turning undead?
Do we say that it’s forcing the power of the god down the poor undead’s throat or is it simply presenting the power and righteousness of the god so the undead walks away like a homophobe refusing to be in the same room as a gay person? If the former, then the paladin or cleric is acting immorally, if the second then the undead is a bigot and deserves what’s coming to them.
Given the fact turn undead only works on a small segment of the populace (specifically the undead part) I think we can assume that it’s a knee jerk bigot reaction on their part. Given this we should be highly dubious when listening to other undead-ist claims. After all, we take anything the KKK claims with a large grain of salt.
As for a moral universe being a bad thing, think how many objections and debates could be simplified in the real world if Detect Good/Evil worked. “OK. I’m detecting as Good. Now let’s test policy positions. I oppose illegal immigrants! I’m not Good anymore. OK. How about, I support boat people’s right to immigrate freely. Good again? Well that settled the debate pretty quickly.”
Of course, if we setup a rule that only Good people could be in government then:
1. I suspect that no one would ever complete a full term in parliament
2. I suspect that the Neutral and Evil sections of the population would object to taxation without representation [1]
As for false promises during torture, I’m familiar with your rule about breaking your word but I prefer a more elegant solution. Anyone you torture, promise to free and then kill can safely be assumed to be a vengeful spirit. They should come back as an incorporeal spirit with the patience and hatred to hunt their killers down one by one. Stories of this sort of thing happening should be common in the game world, which means that anyone who wants to do it can either be permanently paranoid (i.e. only sleep in warded rooms) or they can be ganked (or at least highly inconvenienced) individually. This solution has the advantage of using in game logic and assisting the GM by providing a ready made random encounter or game plot line whenever they’re too lazy to come up with a fresh one.
[1] But who cares what they say. We have paladins to keep that sort of scum in line.
July 25, 2012 at 5:12 am
Hey, sorry to off topic a bit, but I stumbled upon your blog from my search into the Double Cross tabletop game that you reviewed a few years ago. I was wondering if you ever got around to translating it for us non-Japanese speakers, or know of anyone that has.
I really liked your write up on it and am intrigued.
July 26, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Charlie, I have been thinking of doing more of that but I haven’t got around to it recently. The JRPG group (I think i have a link) were doing it but I think it all fell apart. Check with them though, maybe they’re still doing it.