We just had a national election in Australia. As I have done for every other election, I held an election party, this time sans-partner (who was in Oz), and sans-Australians (since I was in Japan). It was attended by an Iranian, two Japanese, one Australian, an American and a Thai.

So, it seems I should also have an obligatory election post here, since I commented on Australian politics recently, and also on the British coalition government.

For my non-Australian reader(s), a brief overview of Australian politics. Australia has a Federal system with a bicameral national parliament, consisting of the lower house (House of Representatives, HoR) and the upper house (Senate). Voting is compulsory and we have a preferential single transferable vote system, so essentially: you have to vote and if your first choice doesn’t get up, your vote wings its way on to the next most popular person, and so on, until it exhausts or someone you preferenced really low gets past 50% of the (preference-allocated) vote. You can see the shenanigans in action at the AEC virtual tally room[1]. The senate is voted at a state level and is even more horribly complicated. There are two main parties, the left-wing party being a social democratic workers party, the Australian Labor Party (ALP) and the “right-wing” party being the Liberal Party, which never garnishes enough votes to rule in its own right and so is in a coalition with the classic party of agrarian socialism, the National Party. The Liberal Party is supposed to traditionally be the party of old-fashioned liberalism, but under Howard it took a turn to protectionist/state-interventionist conservatism, and this was reflected even more so in the current leader, Tony Abbot, a failed catholic monk. There is one other significant party, the Greens, who have a broad political platform but are often characterised as single issue because they were, once. They’re also characterized as “watermelons” (green on the outside and red in the middle) but there is actually some debate amongst rational people as to whether or not they are a social democrat party at all – their own policy manifesto suggests an economic, as well as social, “third way” that is neither classically capitalist nor social democrat[2][3]. The significant leftist party, the ALP, were the incumbents for this election, but kind of screwed the pooch a bit when the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, was deposed by his deputy, Julia Gillard, just weeks before the election was called, in what is rightly characterized as a midnight doorknock-and-knifing. People were horrified by the brutality of his demise, and I was certainly upset for him (Kevin Rudd seemed like a decent guy), but I also note that this is how the ALP works – they’ll throw their own grandmother under a bus if a) it gets them power and b) it helps the workers[7]. At the time this seemed like it might be an election-winning idea, and I was supportive of it for that reason (I share with the ALP a certain respect for brutality towards the higher echelons of the workplace!) but it turns out that it just meant, in the eyes of the electorate, that the ALP threw away all the benefits of incumbency. Every time anyone said “we were a good govt” people could say “well then why did you take Kevin out the back and shoot him?” Bit of an oops that one.

A few notes on Julia Gillard and the ALP government: The ALP steered Australia through a recession without any significant harm, through a combination of good luck and fast, early stimulus, well documented here. I have previously discounted statistically claims that the second part of that stimulus package created extra house fires, and recent reports have suggested that the final, biggest stage – the BER – really wasn’t very wasteful, given its context. They also introduced some partial reforms of healthcare funding, a much-needed area of reform in Oz, and they apologized to indigenous Australians for a dismal aspect of our past, the Stolen Generations. They repealed the previous government’s horrific labour rights legislation, the viciously-misnamed “workchoices,” and attempted to pass a carbon-abatement scheme. This carbon-abatement scheme – which, incidentally, was much criticized for doing nothing but give money to polluters – was the cause of all their subsequent trouble, because it led to massive chaos in the opposition, culminating in the replacement of a new breed moderate leader with the worst type of reactionary (Tony Abbot) and was subsequently knocked back in the senate. Then, instead of showing the spine required of an ALP leader, Kevin Rudd squibbed on it and refused to force it through. He had the choice of a) negotiating a real agreement with the greens or b) ramming it down the conservatives’ throat by means of a “Double Dissolution” election. The latter requires spine, and the former requires principles. So instead he announced that he would delay the ETS essentially indefinitely, and then his poll numbers started to dive.

A few notes on Tony Abbot and the Liberal/National coalition: Tony Abbot replaced a moderate (who was very dodgy himself) in the furore over the carbon abatement scheme, and has run a campaign based exclusively on negativity and having no policies. He promises to “stop the waste, stop the boats and stop the debt” but has no policy on anything to offer. In addition to being very negative, he’s also a staunch catholic who believes women should “save their precious gift” for marriage and who, when health minister, acted to ban the early abortion pill RU486 over departmental advice. I don’t think his religious views would be that relevant in government but if he ever secured control of both houses of parliament things could get a bit… retrograde … in the sex and marriage department[10]. He also got an easy run in the media, who reward stunts over substance every time, and didn’t ever seem to inquire into his policy ideas at all, or pursue them. I have yet to see a single media report on the home insulation program, for example, make any attempt (even vague) to link increasing numbers of fires to increasing numbers of insulations[11]. This is trivial stuff, but as I’ve said before, journalists are so thick that they depend on being fed lies by smarter people than themselves in order to do their job. As an indication of how stupid journalists are – Tony Abbot believes that climate change is “crap” (his words), but journalists still believe things he tells them. It’s actually really hard to pin down a single policy Abbott held in this election except “we’ll give money to rural and marginal seats.” Also, there was a general policy of “our government won’t spend money on infrastructure,” exemplified by his opposition to the government’s $43 billion planned investment in broadband – the opposition preferred a $6 billion policy based on subsidizing the current monopoly to provide wireless to rural seats.

So, Australians went to the polls facing a choice between a lunatic coalition and an ALP that had shown itself willing to back down on its principles at the first sign of trouble. Australians don’t vote in the ALP to back down on principles. So there was a huge swing against the government, most of which flowed to the greens, giving them a new primary vote of 11.5%, a seat in the lower house (Melbourne), and 4 more seats in the Senate. This means that they control the balance of power in the new senate. The two main parties are both going to fail to get enough seats to control the lower house and are currently frantically negotiating with 3 rural independents to form government. A few notes on this:

  • hung parliaments are rarely rare in a compulsory voting, single transferable preferential voting system – the last one was in 1940
  • The Greens vote is not unexpected after the ALP backed down on the carbon scheme, and a first term swing to the opposition is not unexpected as well, but 1.7% nationally is probably a bit much
  • The government lost its majority largely because of shenanigans in two states, New South Wales and Queensland, whose State governments are so on the nose that they may be poisoning the Federal vote – this may have been a problem even if the ALP had behaved impeccably at a national level, and the Liberals certainly played on it
  • If it weren’t for the rural gerrymander favouring the Nationals, the result wouldn’t be in question. The Nationals win 4% of the vote nationally and get 7 seats; the Greens win 11.5% and get 1 seat
  • There was a huge amount of postal / pre voting that polls suggest heavily favoured the ALP, and so it’s possible that close seats will be decided in favour of the ALP (or the Greens) after preference counting is complete. If this happens the “hung” parliament may be reversed to a bare ALP majority (highly unlikely) or the ALP may not have to negotiate with the independents
  • The Independents are ex-National Party rural politicians, but they also really hate the Nationals[12], so it’s unlikely they’ll side easily with them
  • The Independents also seem to be strong supporters of climate change action and broadband investment, so this is a plus for the ALP in negotiations, particularly since the Greens will hold the balance of power in the Senate and dealing with them will require some quid pro quo
  • The ALP has won a slightly higher proportion of the primary vote (50.7%) so they also can argue they are the “more popular” (hah!) party[13]

So my guess is that we’ll get a coalition of the ALP with Greens and/or Independents; and even if the Greens are excluded from the coalition in the House of Representatives, they’ll ultimately de facto have to be included in the coalition because from July next year they have a stranglehold on the senate. The only alternative (and it’s not impossible) is that Labour and Liberal may work together to exclude the Greens – they may continue to think it’s in their best interests to oppose the growth of a third party.

The main bonus of this election is that it highlights the coming of age of the Greens, from a protest party through a single issue party to a party of national relevance. They haven’t really been a single issue party for a long time (their manifesto, written by Bob Brown with the philosopher Peter Singer, was published in 1994), but they’ve always been treated that way by the media. It has taken this extreme situation of a collapse in confidence in the major parties and some good luck in a local electorate to get a member in the lower house, and it has been growing awareness of that single issue – the environment – which has propelled them to fame. In the past they have entered coalitions at a State level and it hasn’t worked so well, but at a Federal level they have an excellent thinker in the form of their senate leader, Bob Brown, and there’s every chance they can behave responsibly and with principle. If they do, Australians will be shown an alternative to the two main parties. This will end the ALP’s 100-year-long effective stranglehold on the left-wing vote, and may have significant ramifications for the Nationals if their rural electorate start to think of the Greens as alternative representatives of farmer’s wealth and rural issues[14]. In quite a few electorates the Greens gave the final winner from the main party a run for their money, either coming close to them in the primary vote or forcing them to depend on preferences. This indicates that the old order is starting to fray at the edges, and if either of the main parties forms an effective coalition with Independents and/or Greens, we may see the beginning of the end of two party dominance in Australia.

The Liberals particularly need to be scared of this, because the combined primary vote of the Greens and the ALP is 50%, much higher than the Liberal/National 44%. If that gets turned into seats for the Greens – either through the ALP coordinating better with them, or the Greens winning in seats where a three-headed race previously favoured Liberal – then the Liberal/Nationals are facing big electoral trouble. The Liberals must be keenly aware of this given that the Nationals’ vote share has been declining over the last 30 years (they are “agrarian socialists” after all). If that vote share drops below a certain level, there’s every risk the Greens will replace the Nationals on the Federal stage, and that is the death-knell of conservative/classical liberal politics in Australia. This in turn would be very good for Australia because it would force the Liberals to reinvent themselves as a socially left-wing, environmentally conscious party of liberalism, rather than the socially-conservative right-wing broad church that they’re trying to be now. Such a move was on the cards after the last election but the conflict over the carbon abatement scheme halted that move. A move towards coalition politics in Australia might – depending on the performance of the coalition partners – hasten it, and <i>that</i> would be a very good outcome for Australia.

But at present, the more realistic outcome (as far as I can see) is that after a remarkably successful election campaign for Tony Abbot and his conservatives, we’ll end up with the most left wing government in 30 years…

UPDATE: The independents have presented a list of demands to the Gillard government, and they’re impressive. Part of this is a demand to fully cost both party’s policies, which should be a problem for the liberals – their policies have not yet been costed, and there is some dispute as to whether they will work out. This letter also seems to put the ball firmly in Gillard’s court, since there are a variety of undertakings there that are harder for an opposition to meet than a government. They also in my view address concerns that the independents were just going to be pork-barrelling. I think there is some strong behind-the-scenes distate with the National Party working behind all of this, and I wonder if the past behaviour of the Nationals is hindering Abbot in negotiating with them. I heard that the Nationals’ leader, Warren Truss, is not allowed in the negotiations with these independents and I recall before the 2004 election there was an attempt to smear Windsor with a bribery allegation, possibly by Truss. I imagine there is not much love lost between them!

fn1: The AEC is an Aussie organisation to be proud of, btw. 14 million Australians voted out of 22 million, and the polling booths all closed without fuss at 6pm, and the decision was (approximately) known by midnight. Compare with the UK, where 27 million people out of 64 million voted, but there was chaos.

fn2: For this reason I am only partly a greens supporter. I like their environmental and social policies but I’m also strongly social democrat-aligned, and I’m really suspicious of economic policies that aren’t based on social democracy. I can see that for post-industrial (like the UK) or resource-exporting societies (like Oz) a non-social-democratic model could be a good idea, but I can also see that it could just be economic hoodoo, and not worth trying.

fn3: Incidentally, while I broadly approve of the rough characterization of social democrat as “left,” I think the dichotomization of this kind of debate into social democracy VS. capitalism is puerile, particularly in a country like Australia where essentially all the parties are social democratic, and the debate between them concerns workers rights and what proportion of the economy should be socialized (and that debate itself narrows over time)[4].

fn4: Lenin agrees with me about this. He was full of scorn for social democratic parties and saw them as a weak attempt to soften capitalism’s hard edges. The way this played out in pre-war Europe is beautifully described in Darkness at Noon by Koestler[5]

fn5: A book I think is in many ways better than 1984, and should definitely be read by those interested in a genuine, non-ideological critique of the ideology of marxist-leninism[6]

fn6: as opposed to a non-ideological critique of the outcomes of marxist-leninism, which is trivial, like shooting fish in a barrel

fn7: though I think it’s safe to say this part of the ALP’s “let’s throw granny under a bus” impulse is getting weaker over successive generations of hacks[8]

fn8: and it’s also worth noting that in a services- and export-oriented economy like Australia, the concept of “helping the workers” is getting harder to found in a single party political program, which is why I’m increasingly tempted to look into the details of the Greens’ economic policies[9]

fn9: which is possibly the mistake that Saruman made

fn10: Typically the federal government doesn’t get control of both houses, and has to negotiate for everything. This is even true of the current ALP, who won in a “landslide” so significant that the former PM lost his own seat; but they still couldn’t control the senate.

fn11: The media still report deaths in Iraq as “over 100,000” when we know that they’re over a million – they won’t report anything which disputes their preferred narrative, and their preferred narrative for the insulation program was that it was a failure. This narrative is straight from the liberals.

fn12: One described them as a “cancer” he had given up, two of them referred to the Nationals’ Finance Spokesperson as a “fool” who “embarrasses rural Australia” and the leader of the Nationals, Warren Truss, has been excluded from negotiations with them because their relationship is so bad

fn13: In the Oz system, “2 party preferred vote” means the percent of votes assigned to the party after preferences have been distributed, and due to the Strong Law of Large Numbers is unlikely to ever be bigger than 52% or less than 48% – very small differences represent large “popularity” (under a very strained definition of popular in which only 39% of people actually voted for the ALP)

fn14: Australian farmers are typically represented as anti-environmentalist rednecks but there is a lot of evidence that this is just the opinion of their elite representative bodies, the Farmer’s Federations and the Nationals, not actually particularly representative of rural opinions. Country people have a lot of significant environmental concerns quite apart from global warming, and the Nationals have failed to deliver on them for years – which is part of the reason all the independents in the House of Reps are ex-Nationals.

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40 responses to “Obligatory Australian Election Post”

  1. noisms Avatar

    Tony Abbot…has run a campaign based exclusively on negativity and having no policies. He…has no policy on anything to offer.

    His policies aren’t that hard to find.

    I think this post essentially sums up why democracy is ultimately doomed to failure. As a famous (?) Australian blogger once wrote, “Lenin agrees with me about this.” 😉

  2. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Those aren’t policies, Noisms, they’re promises at best. For example, “We will take real action to reduce Australia’s emissions without introducing a Great Big New Tax” is not a policy, it’s a statement of intent. “The coalition will provide holistic management of the whole Murray-Darling basin” is a meaningless statement. They’re a collection of motherhood statements, masquerading as “action.” There are a few which are trivially easy to implement because they involve resurrecting Howard-era policies, so everyone knows what they mean; but a good half of that “action contract” is meaningless drivel. A promise not to waste money is not a promise with any meaning in any kind of policy context.

    I don’t think this means democracy is doomed to failure. In fact, a hung parliament is probably a good example of democracy working this time… but it would be nice if

    a) the parties would stand by their principles (not usually a problem for the ALP; and a real low in their history if they can’t do this)
    b) the parties wouldn’t use the “small target” tactic (lookin’ at you, Liberals)
    c) the media would do their job

  3. noisms Avatar

    I’m not defending the policies. But your own political bias seems to be preventing you from assessing them fairly. The stuff about wasting money, for instance, is not “meaningless drivel” or “a promise without any meaning in any kind of policy context” – if you bother to read it the policy seems quite clear (cut government spending) and how it is supposed to be achieved is also quite clear (cut spending on advertising and the school halls programme, restore cabinet government). You may not think it a policy worth pursuing but it is certainly a policy.

    Likewise, you’re right that “We will take real action to reduce Australia’s emissions without introducing a Great Big New Tax” is not a policy, but it’s not actually part of the “policy” section of the document – it’s one of the “Untruths & Myths Exposed”. Again, you’re not reading the document at all fairly.

  4. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    A policy would offer an alternative vision of spending on schools; reasons why they think they can dispense with a major piece of Keynesian pump-priming during a period of international economic uncertainty; and how much they’re going to save on government advertising – Tony Abbot famously previously presided over the biggest-advertising government in Australian history, and this one hasn’t done much advertising at all, so the claim’s a little misleading and could do with some justification. And further down what do we see? His education policy consists of freeing up principals to pay their best teachers extra. Does that really strike you as worthy of the name “policy”? Especially when he’s going to gut a $10 billion school infrastructure program?

    Policy is about more than saying “we’re going to blah.” You need detail, and a coherent vision. The Liberal party this time around have presented nothing – and a duplicitous nothing at that. No mention in their parental leave policy (one of the few actual policies they have) that they’ll be funding it with a Great Big New Tax… and contrary to your claims, the “Untruths and Myths Exposed” version of their climate policy does state some action they’re going to take (this is an action contract, recall?) But it’s so vague as to be nothing more than a motherhood statement.

    Of course, claims of “no policy” are always exaggeration when dealing with politicians (they have to say something, no matter how vague), but look at the devil in the detail of some of these – they won’t reintroduce AWA’s but will “work to increase flexibilty.” What does that even mean? It’s perfectly reasonable to criticize a party for giving a policy which is no deeper in content than “we’ll make […] better!” That ain’t policy, it’s a small-target advertising plan.

  5. noisms Avatar

    Policy is about more than saying “we’re going to blah.” You need detail, and a coherent vision.

    How’s this for detail? There’s even one for the Murray-Darling basin.

    Again, I’m not defending the Liberal party’s policies, but I submit that you are not being, in any way, shape or form, fair in your assessment that those policies don’t exist.

  6. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I’ll grant you that the Murray-Darling basin plan resembles a policy, though it consists of a) continuing the Labor party policy, b) a study to see the impact of a plan that was released 3 years ago (now there’s some timely policy development for you) and c) some money from an existing program that they’ll cancel, to be spent on pipes by farmers.

    Let’s compare that with their immigration policy, shall we? This is the policy that has been the centrepiece of their stop the boats/waste/tax campaign, and what does it consist of? a) “reduce” annual immigration to the level it has already been predicted it would fall to under current policy settings; b) fund a white paper (another study); c) maintain the number of skilled migrant visas at the current level. The total costing for this policy is 16 million dollars and the only innovation in it is… the introduction of the term “guard rails.” Abbott has been asked repeatedly about this 170,000 figure of his in media interviews, and has failed to explain how it constitutes a policy, since it is the same as the predicted immigration rate. He’s also not been asked to explain how he will get the number of boats back down to 3 per year, or how he will stop them – though he has been challenged about that by the ALP repeatedly. This isn’t policy development as we know it.

    They haven’t costed any of their policies, and they have consistently defied demands to justify the cost savings they claim they’ll find. Most of these policies are thought bubbles that will never be acted on in power, because they have no evidence of any funds; a lot of the policies don’t even build on anything labour has done, they simply consist of ending labour programs.

    It’s not enough to put out a document with “policy” emblazoned on the front. That policy has to be something different to the status quo if you’re going to claim it as your own, and it needs to at least contain an attempt at justification. What kind of “action plan” is a series of policies to review a 3 year old report? Is it possible, just possible, that the Liberals could have examined those reports in the 3 years since they lost office? That’s what policy development consists of.

  7. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    incidentally, it’s clear Noisms to all who care to care, that “no policy” is not a strict statement of fact but a rhetorical flourish to indicate poor policy development and presentation, and a certain amount of glibness or glad-handedness about the details, i.e. a small-target approach to policy release. Particularly in a party which has based a lot of policies on the work of the govt they used to be (which got thrown out resoundingly).

    It’s also the case that the ALP haven’t presented their policies well, even the really well-developed ones like the National Broadband Network or their education policy, but they were much better developed. The problem there was that they were deliberately hiding their policy light under a bushell for fear of public debate about it, god only knows why. This is a similar problem in election campaign terms (no-one knows what you’re about, so they don’t trust you), particularly when you can’t fall back on the benefits of incumbency because you knifed your boss and threw out your record, and the media insist on peddling idiotic lies about your main successes. But it’s a different cause – the coalition (Liberal/National party) didn’t make a serious effort to develop policy until the campaign and then they only released the bare minimum required, much of it based on rehashing old government work, because they don’t want to be challenged on details and they want to tie their campaign to claims that they used to run a government and they can be trusted. This is many things, but it’s not policy development that’s worth the name (hence, for example, they present the immigration numbers predicted under the ALP’s policy settings as a policy goal for their own work).

    But obviously they’ll still have a page on their website full of “policy documents.” It doesn’t mean they’ve put any work into them or presented any policies that will survive their first week in government.

  8. noisms Avatar

    Toys, pram, thrown.

  9. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    what? What a ridiculous, juvenile and idiotic comment. Not only do you know nothing about the background of the debate on policy in Australia, which makes your opinion pretty poor to start with, but you’ve managed to reduce the whole post (and all replies) down to a single gotcha on the arcane point of whether a single phrase is exactly correct. Of course you know nothing about what the content of the policies you present as evidence means, or what debates have or haven’t been had about their lack of content in the Australian media (which is why you can’t respond to the point on the immigration policy). So when I try to point out to you some justification for the claim that these policies are smokescreens for real work you come up with a shitty little 3 word response. I don’t expect you to be able to engage with the details of discussions about a country on the other side of the world whose news is heavily filtered (through your godawful media), but that’s still pretty graceless.

  10. noisms Avatar

    Come on man, get a grip. You were proved wrong, and then threw up a very silly semantic smokescreen to try to weasel your way out of it. You can’t expect to do that and not be called out on it.

    The thing is, this isn’t an “arcane” point at all, and the fact that you think it is is more to the pity. Like the vast majority of people your mind is made up and your kneejerk reaction is to piss over what you percieve to be the “other side” without bothering to engage either with the substance of what they think, or why they think it. (For instance, you clearly haven’t read the policy documents on the Liberal party website to do with immigration, or else you ignored the sections which explain why they think they can get it down to 3 boats per year and why the number is 170,000 people; the reason I didn’t answer that point was because it hardly seemed germaine to the discussion, and I don’t see the point in copying and pasting from pdfs that you could simply read for yourself if you were genuinely interested. For what it’s worth those figures and policies may be quite wrong – I don’t have a horse in the race – but they can’t be dismissed for the reasons you’re dismissing them, which essentially amount to “the Liberal Party haven’t explained anything”. They have, in some detail, on their website.)

  11. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Pointing out that “they have no policy” is a rhetorical flourish is not a “semantic smokescreen.” You don’t have anything substantive to say so you’ve decided to go crackers over this one tiny point, which I’m happy to defend in the spirit in which it was meant: the coalition have no policy. For example, on broadband Tony Abbot couldn’t even say how wireless would be used to expand access to broadband, whether this would affect other wireless services, whether it would mean towers at the end of every street, etc. They were incapable of defending the decision to entrench the Telstra monopoly, or of even explaining whether how they think peak speeds might differ from average speeds (which they can’t give any information on). More alarmingly, neither could his telecommunications spokesperson, and there was no response – after a week of negative press – to clarify any of it. Their budget reply speech was a shambles of buck-passing, ending with the Finance spokesperson handing out a hastily-cobbled-together one page note identifying “cost savings” at a separate speech venue days later. Their figure on immigration has been widely pilloried as a blatant attempt to claim they have a policy when they don’t.

    My claim in this regard is not an example of my (self-evident and openly stated) biases, either. I made the same claim about the ALP in 2001 and 2004, and I certainly didn’t make the same claim about Howard in 1998 or 2004, or Hewson in 1993. It was widely bandied about in 1996 about Howard, who basically invented the modern small-target negative campaign[1]. I’m not speaking in isolation here, and you can rest assured that I won’t suddenly find the Liberals to my liking because they’ve released a policy – I am quite capable of biased analysis of existing policies, which is probably what I’d do if Turnbull were running[3].

    You’re obviously aware that “policy” is about more than what’s written on a party’s website, and particularly during an election campaign the depth of foolishness in a particular policy gets publicly exposed. What you’re reading on that website has been shown to be very poorly developed by anyone who cares to look, and in many cases looks very much like a glib attempt to look interested until after the election is won. For example, the maternity leave policy, which came out of nowhere and requires a Great Big Tax (to which the Liberals are apparently opposed) is being proposed by a man who just a few years ago – 2007 I think – wrote a book about “revitalizing the liberal party,” called Battlelines in which he explicitly ruled out maternity leave. The climate change “policy” is being presented by a man who in the last 6 months claimed climate change science was crap, then admitted that the party has to say something on climate change because the voters like it, and now expects us to believe that a few lines in the “Myths exposed” section of his policy document counts as a policy. He has openly admitted that his own policy was cobbled together purely to attract votes.

    This is another example of Noisms redefining basic concepts like “policy development” and “public ethics” in order to appear open-minded in his trenchant defense of conservatism, and resorting to cheap gotchas in the process.


    fn1: in fact, didn’t Cameron invite some criticism in the UK for not adopting that style? Isn’t the hung parliament blamed on his decision to actually announce and defend policies, by some members of his own party? With further salaciousness added in because some of his crusty palaeo-con backbenchers secretly believe he’s more suited to the lib-dems than the Tories. I wonder if Cameron will prove to be a bit like Rudd, about whom one backbencher (supposedly[2]) said, “his only friend was Newspoll, and now that the polls have deserted him, he’s doomed.”

    fn2: This election more than any other has been marred by scurrilous rumours and baseless accusations. This reached the high point of farce when a journalist asked Julia Gillard a question based on “leaked information” on a Tuesday, sparking 2 days of frenzied media attention, then complained on Friday that reporting on the campaign was being distracted by too much attention on trivialities like leaks. As journalists become lazier and thicker (if that were even possible?), they become more dependent on being drip-fed information by their betters, and increasingly credulous about the information – even when they’re told, for example, as they were this election by a very famous ALP power-broker, that “leaked Internal party polling” is almost always fictional data released to make a story.

    fn3: Though actually it’s possible that Turnbull would have some better social policies and a better carbon pricing scheme than labor, and would be much better placed to negotiate with the Greens, I suspect.

  12. noisms Avatar

    You don’t have anything substantive to say so you’ve decided to go crackers over this one tiny point, which I’m happy to defend in the spirit in which it was meant: the coalition have no policy.

    What you really mean is that you haven’t read their policies, because you don’t care to. It’s as plain as the nose on your face from your comments, which never amount to anything more than “Tony Abbott hasn’t said x” or “the Liberal Party haven’t explained y” when they clearly have on their own website. (I don’t know why you’re still going on about the action plan/contract – I thought we’d moved on from that?) From what I glean from reading those policies the Liberal Party are not one that I would vote for, but I understand their explanations for why they are doing what they are doing well enough.

    This is another example of Noisms redefining basic concepts like “policy development” and “public ethics” in order to appear open-minded in his trenchant defense of conservatism, and resorting to cheap gotchas in the process.

    And here’s the old “argue with what you want your opponent’s argument to be, not what it actually is” routine again. I couldn’t give a shit about Tony Abbott’s personal ethics in this instance, as it isn’t at all relevant to whether or not he has any policies and whether he has explained how he arrived at them – which is the point at issue.

    Just more smokescreens I’m afraid.

  13. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    What you “glean” Noisms, is completely out of whack with what the rest of the world gleans from the Coalition policies. Which is why, incidentally, in response to today’s demand from the Independents to submit their policies to the treasury for costing, Tony Abbott said no. Because they’re poorly developed back-of-the-envelope figures, with no validity in any real analysis.

    It’s not enough to read the Liberals’ website; you need to look at the whole discussion that’s been going on about these policies for weeks. It may not surprise you to know I have, and it’s clear you haven’t. These policies were presented with the intent of claiming a “Budget black hole” (you may be familiar with that concept, your ideological mates pulled the usual shifty trick in the UK recently) and chucking them out.

    Because of your own biasses, you’re happy to accept an “explanation” of “policy” from the liberals that wouldn’t pass muster from a left wing party.

    You also missed the point about redefining “public ethics” btw – that’s a reference to your last desperate attempt to defend a corrupt conservative against the tide of history, not to this current situation.

  14. noisms Avatar

    Go back and read through the comments that have been posted, and you’ll see your position morph into something utterly different from what it originally was; this is like arguing with my mother except it isn’t as funny. First off, the Liberals don’t have policies. Then, they have things that resemble policies but aren’t quite. Then, they have “small target” policies. Now they have policies based on dodgy costing. Which is it?

    You also missed the point about redefining “public ethics” btw – that’s a reference to your last desperate attempt to defend a corrupt conservative against the tide of history, not to this current situation.

    Maybe I missed it because it has nothing to do with this debate whatsoever? I tend not to notice desperate attempts from out of left field to derail a discussion…

  15. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Oh Noisms, you are an insulting and unpleasant little man at times aren’t you?

    Liberals don’t have policies = rhetorical flourish
    Things that resemble policies but aren’t quite = your deliberate misrepresentation of my explanation of the true meaning of the flourish, which is that they are poorly developed and glib (as opposed to well-developed and bad)
    “Small target” policies= one of the benefits of this approach to policy-making to them, and possibly the reason they did it, and a point of comparison with previous governments (i.e. explanatory detail)
    Now they have policies based on dodgy costing= evidence from their behaviour (refusal to submit policies for costing) in favour of my claim (that the policies are bodgy back-of-the-envelope jobs).

    The only thing that has come out of left field to derail this discussion is you deliberately turning an obvious rhetorical flourish into arcane debate, either because you have nothing serious to say, or you can’t find a better defense of your natural conservative stablemates.

  16. noisms Avatar

    Yes, I am insulting and unpleasant when I smell victory in a debate – it’s a lawyer’s trait. 😉

    This kind of thing is not “arcane debate”. It’s about your continuous subtle shifting of your own position and your constant reinterpretation of the very meanings of the words you are using, and is symptomatic of your argumentation in general, which seems to rely almost entirely on proof by verbosity. I’m quite happy to let the record stand; anyone reading these comments will make their own mind up, I’m sure.

    I find it amusing by the way that you think I’m attempting a “defense” of my conservative stablemates, when I’ve already said I wouldn’t vote for the Liberal Party. To tell the truth I couldn’t care less which government Australia elects. Nothing that happens in Australia affects me, and there’s no great difference ideologically between the parties anyway – I expect it hardly matters who gets in in terms of what will happen to the country.

    What I care about is the tendency in the English speaking world towards crude dismissal of policies one doesn’t agree with as being the product of cretins, maniacs or psychopaths. The left characterises the right as either a pack of baby-eating vampires or simpleton rednecks, the right characterises the left as either sandal-wearing do-gooders or oafish populists, and nobody bothers genuinely engaging in anything approaching productive debate. Your initial post is just a tiny part of this very depressing picture, and that’s the serious thing I have to say.

  17. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Your lawyer’s trait is to distract discussion on the minutiae of definitions, and to look for logical errors in what is obviously rhetoric. You also have this nasty trollish trait of demanding clarification and then treating it as “reinterpretation.” That’s just being a wanker – another lawyer’s trait, perhaps?

    It’s pretty rich to hear you complaining about other people’s “crude dismissal” when you are clearly arguing with the stereotypical lefty in your head every time you visit my blog, and have yourself referred to me as a “bleeding heart do-gooder” or some such nonsense. On more than one occasion. If you knew anything about me you’d know that I don’t routinely dismiss policies I don’t agree with as the product of cretins, maniacs or psychopaths; but if you knew anything about Australian politics you would know that Barnaby Joyce, the opposition finance spokesman, is routinely derided as such in the Australian press. He was referred to by two of the independents in rather less than glowing terms – “that fool” and “crazy” are I think the terms used. He’s the one who’s been charged with selling the “stop the debt” message. Perhaps if you knew that you’d be paying more attention to the difference between “crude dismissal” and “analysis.” It might also occur to you to wonder what kind of policy development process is going on in a party whose leader has admitted he doesn’t like economics or have any interest in it, and has instead passed the job to a small-town accountant widely recognized as being a little short up top. But I suppose you can’t do that, since anything that triggers the strawman lefty in your head, or appears to argue against your cherished conservative ideals, sends you a tad haywire.

    Which is why you haven’t responded to a single point I’ve raised about the problems in the Coalition’s policy development process, or their obvious poor background work, and instead prefer to interpret a single sentence in its most desperately literal sense, for cheap point scoring.

  18. Grey Avatar

    So, it looks like you basically have the same problems the states do except with a different set of people~ Essentially, statist takeover.

  19. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I don’t think so, Grey. To the extent that the word has any meaning, Australia has always been a very “statist” society, and only recently liberalized. I think the Hawke and Keating labor government in the 80s started this – they’re widely seen as liberalizing the economy – and although some people describe the subsequent Howard government as “never having seen a problem they couldn’t solve with state money,” they too were generally happy to increase the amount of private enterprise. I think that Australia perfected the “Public Private Finance” arrangements now so widely reviled in the UK, and the recent “keynesian” response to the global financial crisis was primarily about throwing government money at private enterprise. I don’t think you’ll find many people outside the extreme right-wing claiming that the Rudd/Gillard labor government is “statist” – they tried to implement a market scheme for carbon pricing, for example. Abbott’s a bit more difficult to place, because his policies are so poorly developed and defined that it’s hard to tell what philosophy he is working from, and many of his public utterances in the past 3 months contradict the book he wrote a year or 3 ago which apparently outlines his “guiding principles.” He has described himself as a “weathervane,” so it’s hard to know where he stands. He’s also a crazy catholic, so maybe wants to de-liberalize the private sphere, but there’s very little of that kind of stuff you can get away with in a modern democracy. I think Australia is probably at the end of an era of liberalization, and maybe looking at going “backwards” a little, but it will never return to the state-controlled economies and private lives of the 60s, and I would say overall right now has a mix of state and private sectors that most of the population is comfortable with. This election (like every other) is more about how to divide up the middle-class welfare, and how to handle the environment and the resources boom, than anything else. In fact, the subtext of this election has probably been: are we setting a fair price for carbon, minerals, and water? This is hardly a “statist” debate.

  20. Grey Avatar

    Interesting, it always fascinates me to see the way the US, UK and Australia have in terms of similiaries and differences in governmental and societal development.

    I should wish those were the worst of the issues debates in the states this year, we are we are seeing nothing but federal power grabs. Hopefully, there will be some serious house cleaning here. (but probably not.)

  21. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I haven’t been following US politics recently, so I’m not sure what you mean when you say “federal power grabs.” Are you talking about Obamacare? Because I think by international standards it barely passes muster as a power grab (from what I can see of it). And hasn’t the Supreme Court (?) just delivered a significant loosening up of gun laws, and essentially removed any further power grabs by any govt in that area? I’m not sure what else you could be talking about…?

  22. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    I haven’t read the arguments here though I do intend to come back to them. Mostly I want to confirm:
    Noisms – Are you the same person who wrote the “[Let’s Read]AD&D 2e Monstrous Manual” thread on rpg.net? (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=404795 for one part of it) because I regard that as one of the great reviews of the nigh-nonsensical material that made up so much of my teenage years 🙂

    OK, now to read the politics and comment.

  23. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    truly that’s an excellent project (but… unfinished? Noisms! You should get back to it!), and surely the same Noisms!

  24. Grey Avatar

    The latest bailouts stealth federalized a lot of industries essentially, what little remained of banking, a lot of auto, healthcare is on the way. The continued strongarming of state governments is occuring, but there is finally some serious pushback occuring. Whether it actually means anything, time will tell.

    The supreme court essentially confirmed what was already known with the 2nd amendment, but still left it open to “reasonable” regulation which is still rediculously confining depending on the local governance.

  25. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    But they didn’t have a lot of choice did they? The alternatives to bailout were collapse. If you’re thinking of when to pick your battles for free markets, it seems to me like opposing taxpayer-funded largesse to save jobs in a time of crisis is not one of those times when you’ll cover yourself in glory. Healthcare is, by international standards, completely not a power-grab: Australians, brits and Europeans would say “my god, that’s piss weak” and mostly urge you to do more. The destruction of a whole bunch of private health industries is probably a small price to pay for universal coverage (though probably not necessary either), in the eyes of all those countries to your East (and West) who have much better health systems.

    I don’t know about strongarming state governments- isn’t that what federal governments always do? And haven’t state governments boxed themselves in by passing zero-debt laws?

    The gun law thing is also another example of a power-grab that Europeans, brits and Australians will shrug at – we’ve had those kinds of laws forever, and aside from a few weirdos we really, really don’t notice …

  26. Grey Avatar

    Systemic collapse is going to be the ultimate result either way, with how its going. You’re either going to have hyperinflation (most likely) or deflation depending on who you talk to but the US federal government can’t simply keep spending the way they are with zero effects. The bailout was a temporary fix meant to simply buy time, I’m firmly believing we have another dip in the recession/depression coming here. Hopefully I’m wrong.~

    Zero debt boxed the states in a little but, but really accepting money from the feds was what truely hooked them in. The ones who are deeply in the red now are going to either have to default, or go crying to the dealer for a fix (the fed gov.) Of course, such fixes are never attachment free.

    As for the guns, some of us like having them 😀 Not too much more I can say on it other than that.

  27. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I don’t think there’ll be any such thing, Grey. The US has never defaulted on its debt, and will never need to. It’s unlikely to have hyperinflation either. I live in a country (Japan) with much higher public spending than the US, much lower unemployment (essentially full employment) and it is experiencing deflation, and has done for 10 or 20 years. That pretty much pisses on most orthodox theories of how public spending works. I suggest you try reading up on Modern Monetary Theory, which gives an alternative viewpoint to the standard deficit terrorism view of pubic spending.

    I’m also not sure you can classify public spending as a “power grab.” I don’t think anyone in Australia would argue that medicare (our universal health insurance system, government run) constitutes any kind of intrusion into our freedoms. And although the US government has done some power grabbing in relation to the bailout, they hardly had a choice about this did they? The consequences of the banks collapsing would have been disastrous, and you don’t pour billions (trillions?) of dollars into a couple of companies without getting to have some say over how they work, particularly when the reason that you poured the money in is that they were working so badly that they threatened to bring the economy down.

    It’s interesting you raise debt, because the Australian opposition leader presented as one of his policies that the government needed to “live within its means” and learn to behave like a “sensible household.” But he himself has a debt-to-income ratio (on his mortgage) far higher than the governments, and it will last far longer. The government’s debt, like a business, is being used on expanding infrastructure, investing in wealth creation, etc. Just like his. Surely by his household model the Australian government should go much higher into debt? This is the intellectual bankruptcy of deficit terrorism – it proceeds from a cheap analogy, and the analogy itself is flawed.

    Do you see an alternative to your states’ economic problems, or the Federal Government’s, for that matter? Do you see an alternative to more Federal spending? Your government has a much higher debt-to-GDP ratio than Australia, but doesn’t even have universal health coverage. So isn’t the problem there at least partly that your money is badly spent, rather than that you have too much debt?

  28. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    I’m generally a supporter of the Australian Medicare [1], but on the topic of “I don’t think anyone in Australia would argue that medicare (our universal health insurance system, government run) constitutes any kind of intrusion into our freedoms.”
    I do have to point out that it’s not hard to construct an argument of “Tax you for Medicare (Medicare levy), then tax you for being a high income earner (progressive income tax), then insist you have private health insurance (or there’s an additional tax) then say that private health insurance rebates are a bad thing – At what point would I be better of in a system where the government’s policy is I can die in a ditch unless I just pay for it?”

    Now I don’t believe that, but it does illustrate that the health policy does impact on individuals freedoms [2] it’s just that as a society that we have either an acceptance that the sacrifice is worth the result (i.e. me) or a refusal to see the the topics as related (i.e. you).

    [1] My occasional disagreements are more likely to be around execution or general targets which some people seem to think should be “Spend enough to ensure no one is sick and everyone in Australia lives forever”

    [2] Just like arguments that the UKs NHS is free is total crap. It’s just free at the point of use. And even if you don’t pay any tax in the UK then “Paid for by someone else” “free”.

  29. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    That’s true, but the private health insurance rebate is generally accepted by everyone outside of the liberal party as an extremely poor (health) policy that wastes huge amounts of money.

    Also, in theory (ha!) the medicare levy and the progressive taxation are separate issues. You could tax everyone the same and still have a medicare levy – you could think of it as a fee for healthcare. The only part of this that is an intrusion into your freedom is that you have to pay it, regardless of whether you use the system. But even if you don’t “use the system” you still use the system – Australian emergency departments are available to you (and you do have to use them, because private hospitals don’t do that), you benefit from the PBS, etc. – so you can’t really say that you’re being forced to pay something for nothing.

    Which is why I think most Australians don’t see it as an intrusion into our freedoms even though in some basic level it is, as you point out. I don’t like arguments about taxes and freedom, anyway, because I see taxes as an inevitability of life. They’re as much a part of society as putting up with noisy people in a restaurant, or having to admire photos of your friend’s baby.

  30. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    “because I see taxes as an inevitability of life. They’re as much a part of society as putting up with noisy people in a restaurant, or having to admire photos of your friend’s baby.”
    Aren’t you an anarchist? What sort of anarchy endorses taxes as valid? And there’s a world of difference between social pressure to coo over a baby and the threat of jail time if you tell the government to disappear up its own bottom.

    “Also, in theory (ha!) the medicare levy and the progressive taxation are separate issues.” This would be true if the healthcare costs were covered by the flat rate levy and people who didn’t pay it were denied coverage. (It would also be even more extreme than the US system and we both agree it would be a bad outcome.)

    The facts of the matter boil down to: When the government guarantees to stay away from you (i.e. the right to freedom from imprisonment without charge, the right to bear arms) that’s the government maximising everyone’s freedoms directly at a trade off of security. When the government guarantees that no child will live in poverty by 1990 that is 1. A blatant lie they should be repeatedly called on/teased about and 2. a way of increasing overall for the populace security at the expense of someone’s freedom.

    Security and freedom in the senses used above are closely tied because without one you generally don’t want the other. For example, who cares if you can bear arms if you are also too poor/sick to carry them and having perfect health at the cost of Gordon Brown installing tracking device in your colon is not a good deal. If you want you can describe what I’m calling security here as freedom (i.e. freedom from hunger/poverty), and this isn’t a bad course, but it would have robbed me of a quick descriptor to use. Ultimately all this stuff does boil down to some sort of trade off of freedoms – Do you want to carry guns and be shot at by assholes, or not have a gun and not be shot at? Do you want the government taking a portion of your stuff and everyone having health cover, or do you want them to take less (or nothing) and have health in general be better (though yours in particular may even improve depending on your saving and spending choices).

  31. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    All true!

    Taxing people for healthcare can create freedom though – there are Americans, after all, who can’t change jobs because their healthcare is tied to their job, or a condition developed during their tenure at their current job will be treated as a pre-existing condition if they change healthcare providers. This kind of restriction on freedom isn’t the same as the Australian version of a job that comes with private healthcare – it’s a harsh imposition to be doomed to choose amongst a limited pool of jobs (or not able to move at all). Obviously how much freedom is created by changing this system depends on how harsh the system is, but it’s worth bearing in mind.

    These kinds of trade-offs are hard to quantify, but I think British and Australians are lucky to be able to make decisions about where to work without having to worry about horrible extraneous things like whether it will destroy their future ability to enter hospital. Which isn’t to say that such a situation couldn’t happen without taxation, but it’s doubtful.

    I’m also not thankful to you for giving me the image of Gordon Brown installing anything in anyone’s colon, and I may become a significant burden on the national mental health care system as a result. Bastard!

  32. Grey Avatar

    Don’t get me wrong, a massive default and collapse would’ve been very ugly. But it would’ve corrected the books and by now, we’d probably have been semi-smooth sailing. Now we’re in this murky state of instability with no reserve to pull us out of any problem spots. I hope you’re right about the non-defaulting Faust but I just don’t think they can work it infinitely.
    The spending is a continuing creeping power grab. There is never really any return to freedom, only a slow ratching down on what should otherwise be legal action by one party or the other. It’s 1 party here now with 2 faces. You get massive governmental growth either way, the only choice is who gets oppressed by the gov.

    “Do you want to carry guns and be shot at by assholes, or not have a gun and not be shot at?” Thats assuming they’re not going to have guns since you can’t legally carry them. We know that dosen’t work in the UK, it won’t work in the US, and it certainly doesn’t work in Mexico where the penalties for carrying a weapon are utterly draconian. It only succeeds in disarming those who would legally carry them.
    Unfortunately we’ll never get to see how health care works in a true capitolistic system, because we have a major case of crony capitolism here, with governmental strong arming through regulation.

  33. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Grey, I think in the interests of not wasting everyone’s time I’m going to declare the issue of gun control off limits for discussion on my blog. Let someone else on some other blog solve that problem! I just raised the gun control issue as an example of a recent liberalization in the US (because of the Supreme Court case) and Paul’s example was purely an example of freedom vs. security, not intended as a normative statement about what would happen (though he and I probably think it is – but that’s a discussion I don’t want to have here).

    I’m interested by your view that increased spending is necessarily a power grab. I think there’s a step missing in your argument: 1) government spends money (presumably on necessary stuff[1]), 2)… 3) government has more power!!!

    I can see that 2) could have a mechanism, but I don’t see that it’s always the case, and you have to weigh up the power the govt takes against the freedom it creates. e.g. your infamous bailout[2] increases the governments power over a very small number of very rich people, but it also enables ordinary business people to continue to get loans for their businesses. So does it increase or decrease freedom? As far as I can tell the only alternative the govt would have had would have been to set up its own bank, let the majors fail, and then most US businesses would be coming cap in hand to the government for their business loans. Now that is a power grab!

    So I’m not sure that your spending=power grab argument holds, particularly well, even for apparently egregious cases like the bailout. How has the bailout personally reduced your freedom, or that of people like you?


    fn1: I know, I know…
    gn2: which, btw, I don’t really have an opinion on the efficacy of, but my suspicion is that given the cozy relationships amongst business and govt in the US, it isn’t very good

  34. Grey Avatar

    Fair enough on firearms Faust, we’d end up with a carbon copy of every other gun control debate on the web. I just presume not to let certain assumptions go entirely unchallenged if possible.

    As for your step 2, it’s an issue of temporal power through regulatory purposes. By taking federal money, there is certain strings attached such as who and who not to lend to, regardless of whether or not it’s an effecient buisness process. For example, the banks bailed out ~should~ have failed. They are also the same banks donating large amounts of political funds. Now, because of these banks with piss poor practices have been allowed to become larger even though their processes suck. They’ve done this by robbing us (anyone who uses the dollar) via a bailout. Futher regulation recently enacted to prevent them from sucking up again, ironically has minimum amounts of free capitol which will put smaller banks (the effecient ones) out of buisness, but allow the larger banks to buddy up even further with the gov. The entire process is corrupt on a high level.

    The smaller banks are the ones I do buisness with, and the presumed upcoming inflation/deflation is going to hurt badly when it hits. Thats more or less it in a nutshell.

  35. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I can see that such a response puts some fetters on some people, but on who? And what sort of conditions are they? For example, if the conditions are “you can’t invest this bailout money in toxic debt,” isn’t that a good condition? Similarly, if the government sets as a condition that x% of loans need to be to small businesses, whose freedom does that impinge on? And what are the alternatives? If the banks had gone under, there would be very little business investment (or so they claim) and you’d be left with a serious lack of freedom – millions of people out of work, businesses unable to start up, etc. The alternative models proposed are do nothing or create a state bank (or nationalize these banks) and that would be a much greater power grab.

    The reality of the bailout is that it shouldn’t have been necessary, because this collapse shouldn’t have come, and that’s because of unregulated behaviour – i.e., the Federal government didn’t exert its power 10 years ago, when it should have been. So now Obama is pouring money and regulation into a problem that he shouldn’t have inherited. (Didn’t he inherit the bailout, as well as the problem?)

    I think it’s easy to say that businesses “should” fail, but when those failures have significant economic effects a lot of people lose freedom and security, which is exactly what we elect governments to protect.

  36. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    “I’m also not thankful to you for giving me the image of Gordon Brown installing anything in anyone’s colon, and I may become a significant burden on the national mental health care system as a result.”
    While you’re thinking that, remember that he only has partial sight in one eye. While that’s a tragedy on a personal level, at the imaginary colon installation level it’s a new, very squinty, dimension in horror.

    ““Do you want to carry guns and be shot at by assholes, or not have a gun and not be shot at?” Thats assuming they’re not going to have guns since you can’t legally carry them. We know that dosen’t work in the UK, it won’t work in the US, and it certainly doesn’t work in Mexico where the penalties for carrying a weapon are utterly draconian. It only succeeds in disarming those who would legally carry them.”
    Faustus and I frequently discuss issues in the UK that amazed us as they seemed to deliver terrible outcomes and be entirely driven by the British culture independent of legislative or spending levers (the NHS sucking a special kind of ass being the prime example). Maybe gun violence in some cultures is similar to this (i.e. Mexico per your description) where the problem isn’t harsh legislation or lax legislation but the fact that no one in their right mind would even start to address the problem from that starting point.

    But as you’ve both said, this isn’t a debate for here. I’m just intrigued by the new (to me) parallel between my views on the NHS and gun reform.

    “So I’m not sure that your spending=power grab argument holds, particularly well, even for apparently egregious cases like the bailout. How has the bailout personally reduced your freedom, or that of people like you?”
    I can answer that even without US citizenship. The answer is “Does having a credit card that you can’t default on limit your freedom?”. If you think the answer is yes, then the government running up an even larger deficit [1] that the tax payers have to pay back is a bad thing [2]. If you think the answer is no, then I’ve got some credit card forms I’d like you to sign.

    “I think it’s easy to say that businesses “should” fail, but when those failures have significant economic effects a lot of people lose freedom and security, which is exactly what we elect governments to protect.”
    The problem with this approach is it assumes that a soft landing is even possible. What if we’re not talking about a car out of gas coasting to stop but a 747 with engines on fire over the Pacific? The advantage of Grey’s proposed “Let it collapse” is that if practiced firmly (and probably with decent regulation) then the collapse should never be that bad (because it should never have been delayed for 10 years) and the rebuilding offers an opportunity instead of just destruction.

    This may be another “Don’t start from this position” issue though.

    [1] I’m aware the long term projections are savings, but those are theoretical at this stage. The ones that are sure things are the increased spending now.
    [2] Yeah, countries can default on their loans. When their primary holders are internal (i.e. Japan) that’d cause a fallout much worse than the recent banking crisis. When the holders are external (i.e. China) it could lead to God knows what, but a world war is not the worst situation (societal collapse is the worst for my money). People point to Argentina as an example of a default not hurting a country, but the honest truth is I don’t know of a case in history where the primary currency of the world has had this happen. It’s the equivalent of all the gold in Europe in the 1500s turning into lead overnight [3]
    [3] Which would make for a fascinating Compromise and Conceit campaign. Perhaps some form of demon backed currency would prove more stable? [4]
    [4] It’s a Papist plot!

  37. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Well I suppose it’s safest to imagine Gordon doing that colonic installation primarily by feel, then, isn’t it?[1]

    Yeah, the gun control issue in connection with the UK needs to be assessed under the Standard Conditions of UK Assessment, those being: it’s the UK. Normal laws of social interaction don’t work there. If not sure about this, read the “guide dogs” article at the Daily Mash, and weep at the misfortune of your fellow (blind) man[2].

    I think Paul that your credit card argument is about moral hazard, right? (I think it might be an analogy too far for me this evening). If so then yes, that limits your freedom, but in a weird way. If you’re talking instead about the risk of the US government spending too much, and then ending up having to default on the debt, well I don’t think your 15th century gold analogy works because the US doesn’t base its currency on gold anymore[3]; and just because the bailout involved a lot of money now doesn’t mean that it has to be a never-ending pit of money. The US government isn’t particularly overburdened with debt now by international standards, and could afford to double its total current debt. So there’s no risk of default now and I don’t think we have any evidence that they are planning (or were planning) on sinking infinite amounts of money into the bailout.

    I’ll grant you the possibility that the banks might take the bailout as a sign that they can act with impunity and as recklessly as they want in future; but they were doing so in the past, and their behaviour is primarily about regulation – which is a power grab. If your argument is that the moral hazard of bailing out risky practice is expensive and the cost could “limit freedom,” then the alternative – stronger regulation – also requires that you limit freedom, with or without the bailout. The question then becomes: would doing nothing have caused less pain than the bailout, and I think most people seem to believe that doing nothing would have been a big fat disaster[4].

    You talk about Grey’s “let it collapse” model “with decent regulation,” but that’s surely a power grab too, right?

    More generally, the bailout is one example of spending that Grey claims causes a power grab, but Grey’s claim seems to be that in general government spending increases government power. So I’m thinking of two examples here to contradict it, and I’d be interested to hear what Grey thinks:
    1. The First Homeowners Grant, in which the government gives Australians a one-off $7000 cash payment for the purchase of their first home. It’s not means tested, so no-one has to be authorized to pry into your private life, and it comes with no strings attached except that the house be your first house purchase of any kind (I think also you had to register it as your primary home for tax purposes). How is this spending a power grab?
    2. The private health insurance rebate, in which the government gives Australians who pay for private health insurance a 30% rebate on the cost through their taxes. Now, granted, this came alongside a levy that was applied to rich people that basically forced them to take up private health care, so let’s assume for the moment that the government dropped the levy and just applied the rebate. So, in your tax return, you get money back for choosing to buy private health insurance. It’s not means-tested, the tax office don’t do anything except review a letter that your health insurance agency provided you that contains the information they need. How is this form of government spending a power grab?

    Note I’m not asking you to comment on either policy as policy (I personally think they’re both awful, but that’s an argument for another day). I’m interested in the idea that they represent a power grab. I’m also interested in the secondary idea of spending as a drug (you hinted at this with your reference to the state governments needing their “fix”). Do you think this spending counts in that framework, and if so is it an addiction to spending per se, or just to the particular political party that introduced these two classic pieces of middle class welfare?

    fn1: shudder
    fn2: maybe Gordon was actually wreaking havoc on the sighted folk of England, in retribution for their stupid nasty dogs?
    fn3: and isn’t fiat currency just a bit too much like demonic money?
    fn4: which reminds me Paul that you really should start blogging so that you can explain your opinions on these things in more detail

  38. Grey Avatar

    This is a major cop out at the moment but I haven’t had a tremendous amount of time this weekend to look at things – I’m going to have to look up some specifics for you Faust on the regulations, the current ones are Byzantine and not something I can cite off hand.

    As for your questions
    1) Yes, although it’s more of a power creep than a power grab persay. The government in that case is involved in vote buying with other peoples money. The government can generally always count on the vote of who is on the handout end. The net effects are they have to get the money from somewhere through taxation (theft, depending on ones viewpoint.) or they have to print money. The net effect will be currency devaluation which robs from everyone. The winners in such situation are those who bring in an increase of more than inflationary loss.

    2)There are winners and losers here as well, unless your taxes are applied at a flat rate. Since I’m not familiar with the tax structure there, who is getting more than their fair share back in rebates? The same commentary as #1 applies.

    Since I’m sounding pretty heartless here, I’ll say that some relatively minimal form of welfare and unemployment is needed. The trick is balancing it to a point where it dosen’t create apathy among those recieving it… Something we definitely have developed here in the states.

  39. noisms Avatar

    It’s pretty rich to hear you complaining about other people’s “crude dismissal” when you are clearly arguing with the stereotypical lefty in your head every time you visit my blog, and have yourself referred to me as a “bleeding heart do-gooder” or some such nonsense.

    Come on man, can you really not recognise a tongue-in-cheek statement when you see it?

    Paul: Yes, that is me. And faustus, it isn’t unfinished! There were 6 threads, as each time it reached 1000 posts I had to start a new one. I’m going to put it all together in one pdf someday, when I have the time.

  40. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    “Come on man, can you really not recognise a tongue-in-cheek statement when you see it?”
    This is why ever statement on the internet should be read as having a smiley face and the best intentions behind it. For most people it’s accurate and for the trolls it irritates them they can’t get a rise outta ya. 🙂

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