I don’t know the history or provenance of the Old School Renaissance movement, though it seems from the recent rash of “two years old today” posts to be about 2 years old. No-one in that part of the blogosphere is writing their own history, because they’re too busy writing hagiographies of Gygax et al, but while they may not be too interested in talking about how their movement started they do seem to be very fond of developing their own systems, essentially versions of their preferred flavour of original D&D. This is a pretty interesting project, not least because it’s hard to see how you can have versions of such a simple game – but they’re a creative bunch and I’m sure they can find ways.

This development process presents an interesting phenomenon, as does the renaissance approach to D&D generally. Compared to modern games D&D is very stripped back, and the people playing it in the OSR have gone back to it because they think of this as a good thing. They’re all big on house ruling too, and when they started this OSR process they seemed to have a few common views about a few aspects of the game, particularly to do with skills. The OSR generally rejected skill systems, there was a lot of objection to the thief class and the trend towards “role protection” that it started, and a general belief that all the mechanics of the thief class – picking pockets, disabling traps, finding secret doors, climbing walls, opening locks – should be handled by GM/player interaction. There’s still a lot of talk on OSR blogs about how crap skill systems are and how they should be avoided.

My view of the skill system issue is that skill systems are an essential part of a good role-playing system, and a really important part of making the game flexible and enjoyable for everyone. Sure, if you’re a mechanically-inclined or educated person who is good at arguing with the GM and imagining technical details on the spot then you can do this type of interaction, but in general players aren’t expected to know about the thing their PC is doing.  It’s worth noting too that the players don’t have to be ignorant of these things to fail continuously in game – it just requires the GM to be ignorant. I could, for example, run a game in a modern military setting, with all combat mechanics handled through GM-player interaction, and even if my players were soldiers the game would be a disaster because I would be required to pass rulings on something I know nothing about. That’s why skill systems were invented. Recently, I read an OSR blogger referring to this process as “ask mother” gaming, and it’s true – rulings not rules is a nice idea in theory, but in practice it just leads to a bunch of crap decisions by some guy who knows no more about anything than you do, which given the nature of most gaming groups leads to a lot of arguing and not much fun.

Original D&D had a skill system, of course, but the OSR don’t want to admit it (actually, a few of them do, like at Robertson Games). Combat is clearly a skill system, but outside of this there was the skill of find secret doors, find traps, etc. This can be presented as an act of DM fiat – you roll a 1 on a d6 and you find the door – but in reality it’s just a 6 rank skill system, with racially-based differences in starting rank (e.g. for Dwarves) and no improvements. i.e. it’s an arbitrary and naff skill system, which had the designers any precedents for thinking about, they would have extended to 2d6, applied to a wider range of skills, allowed attribute bonusses on, and given ranks in. They didn’t because D&D being the original game was arbitrary and naff, and needed a lot of exposure to players and their incessant, unreasonable demands before it could become good. It’s worth noting too that a task resolution system based on “GM sets a percentage chance of success, adjusted for how you approach the problem and your class” is a skill system of sorts, with heavy flavours of arbitrarity and stunting. So in  subsequent years, game designers (including TSR) developed new and better skill systems to encompass all the things they discovered their players wanted to do, and GMs didn’t want to adjudicate on. My contention is that this is a natural development in the game, in which the rule systems were modified to do what the vast majority of players want them to do; it’s inevitable and good .

If my theory about the development of the game is correct, open-minded people playing the original games will begin at some point to house rule in proper skill systems as a natural development of the game. So here’s the natural experiment: how long do people have to play Old School D&D for before they run into all these problems, and start developing a functional skill system, superior to the original, which handles all the things they’ve realised players want to do and GMs are uncomfortable adjudicating on?

Turns out, based on recent reading in the OSR, that it’s about two years.

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67 responses to “A natural experiment in the OSR cauldron”

  1. Stuart Avatar

    I think that’s a really good point about how a game can feel like “Mother May I…” if the player doesn’t have any way to predict whether they’ll be successful at something or not.

    It’s one of the reasons I like rolling dice in the open, and making sure the players understand the odds of succeeding at something before they commit to doing it.

  2. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I got the phrase from one of the three linked blogs above, which also introduced me to the term “role protection,” complaints against which I can’t understand (isn’t that the point of character classes?) But I may have misunderstood it.

    I’ve noticed a lot of OSR bloggers who are allowing skill systems still object to their use in social interaction. I wonder how long it will be before they give in to that too. If they don’t, I’ll take it as a sign that game development maybe never has to go down that path (personally, I think that social skill systems are also an important part of the game, but that may be just because I’ve played with a lot of shy people). We’ll see…

  3. Stuart Avatar

    I don’t like the thought that you can *only* do something if you belong to a certain class – unless it’s something like Magic. Maybe you aren’t very good at it, but anyone should be able to try and move quietly, or look for traps or something. Maybe even magic – why not let the untrained person read from a scroll… just give them a dodgy % for having the spell work properly. 😀

    I do think the Alignment system + languages, Charisma scores and Reaction checks are all social mechanics of a sort.

  4. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I’m not sure why magic particularly gets special consideration in fantasy role-playing, though I agree with you. I suppose a skill system enables the role to be more clearly defined by restricting the extent to which non-thieves can do certain things. But these kinds of contradictions are exactly why I prefer systems without classes.

    The alignment system would have to be the most under-used social mechanic of all time! I think I gave up reaction checks and morale checks almost as soon as I started DMing, because I wanted monster behaviour to be entirely my responsibility, not randomly determined. But yeah, they’re a very primitive social mechanic.

  5. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    Your preferred approach of skill systems just results in moving the character’s incompetance somewhere else. Your example of a 1/6 chance finding secret doors in early editions needs to be contrasted with the chance of doing the same in later editions where, if I haven’t invested in the Search skill I’ve got a about a 1/20 chance. This means that in editions will point based skills included you have a roughly 5% chance on everything you haven’t maxed out and a 75% chance of the stuff you’ve focused on.

    The disparity of results (almost certain for trained versus stuffed for untrained) is due to the scaling difficulty level of the checks where a trap facing a 20th level character may need a skill roll of 40+ to be disarmed versus a 10+ at first level. This is especially obvious in D&D 4e which explicitly increases target numbers at levels 10 and 20 to match the expected skills of the character. But the result of this boils down to rolls of 10+ succeeding in trained skills and a 1/20 chance of success on untrained skills.

    By contrast skillless systems don’t need to scale. A 1/6 chance of finding a hidden door means that my untrained early edition fighter always has a higher chance of finding the door than my untrained 3.5e fighter. Also, it means that hidden doors don’t need to get progressively more difficult as we trapse through different dungeons just so that the 3.5e rogue character (who bothers training Search) can have a reasonable target number. The same logic applies on traps, but a focus on non-skill based systems means that thinking a trap is logical to have on the chest and responding by using an 11 foot pole to open it means you can avoid the impact, even without needing to have a rogue.

    Ultimately, a level based design with limited skill points means you can never be broad enough to cover all necessary bases. This does have advantages in niche protection but also means that the party suffers from Bob rolling badly on a trap check which they can’t then participate in.

    And ultimately all this focus on skills results seems to boil down to a crusade against player cunning, the 10 foot pole and letting the hireling open the next door.

    Social skills are a different kettle of fish. If you set a social skill system you also need a fair resolution system for it as well. For example, 3.5e had Diplomacy as a skill. What is the difficulty to convince you to top yourself? (This is actually shown in the rules, its around 100). If I roll that (due to my min-maxed skills) what defence do you have? None. Basically, including social skills means that social skills can get you killed (same as combat skills or failing a climbing check). The difference is there is no defence against it. And unlike when you tell me a swords gone through my sternum or that gravity is about to transform my legs (then torso) into jelly, a social check isn’t an uncaring world stuffing you over – it’s fundamentally transforming how the character is played. If you roll a good diplomacy check then my character no longer likes chocolate, or is unwilling to kill dragons, or will let the princess die. Frankly its lots more fun to just have my character’s head hacked off.

    Exalted [1] handles social combat a little differently by explicitly making it a combat arena, but including defences and setting lower penalties for losing (i.e. you may no longer like chocolate, but you can reverse that fairly easily and your core motivation of killing dragons is nigh-invulnerable). And people still dislike it! [2]

    Reaction checks, charisma scores/bonuses and alignment languages are ultimately much less intrusive. A bad roll on the reaction check may mean the guard doesn’t like your face, but that just means you need to either play nice or nasty in a way you think your character would to still get past him. And my take on alignment languages these days really boils down to watching people support political parties and realising that while all involved may be speaking English, they are not sharing enough assumptions or background knowledge to talk in any meaningful way. [3] The same approach can be applied to alignments.

    And if you think a player isn’t able to do a good enough job role playing to get past a guard or convince a king then encouraging them and going easy as they do it should eventually help them improve. Saying “Roll your ungodly Diplomacy skill” will keep the story ticking on, but doesn’t enourage role-playing or really tackle the problem. [4]

    [1] Yes, I refer to this system a lot. It’s one I know well and has different assumptions to D&D which makes it a useful alternate point of view.Though that has more to do with the resources for social combat being tied to resources for physical combat, which means losing an argument greatly increases your chances of having a sword stuffed up your bum.

    [2] Though that has more to do with the resources for social combat being tied to resources for physical combat, which means losing an argument greatly increases your chances of having a sword stuffed up your bum.

    [3] Sarah Palin says “Don’t retreat, reload” and its either taken as a joke about continuing to fight politically or alternatively as a call for a better grade of gun to be used in assasination attempts. To suggest the different listeners can’t speak to fellow travellers without another person understanding is clearly nonsense.

    [4] And if your problem is that players who can construct good arguments get better results from NPCs and thus more screen time, then think about how much screen time they get from a “Roll Diplomacy. You succeed, the King and his army will help you.”

  6. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    If your setting out to defend niches, the magic is a niche that needs to be strongly defended. Especially if the character has sacrificed hit points, the ability to wear armour and use most weapons to get it and it has a limited number of uses per day.

    “The alignment system would have to be the most under-used social mechanic of all time!”
    I’d agree with this in game, but mostly because people play fairly consist characters any. Out of game I actually find it incredible useful as it means that when discussing philosophy with D&D players we all share touchstones on moral issues and we’re (generally) aware of the shades of grey such approaches cause. Certainly, I’d say that thinking about the alignment system has made me a better person in real life (i.e. judging my actions against arbitrary standards).

    “I think I gave up reaction checks and morale checks almost as soon as I started DMing, because I wanted monster behaviour to be entirely my responsibility, not randomly determined.”
    I gave up on morale checks straight away because I didn’t want to have to spend the next hour watching my players track down all escapees in order to complete their kobold genocide.

  7. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    oh great, the bloody emo radical lefty ponce is here to whine on about his favorite exalted anime-style whiny-game… 🙂

    I agree about the brokenness of the social skills in D&D – and note my OP implies that social skills may not be a requisite part of good game design. And hey! I really like the mechanics in Exalted (at least the way my only GM handled them). I’ve been thinking of a way to adapt them to a d20 skill system, actually (more on this later, I think you’ll like it).

    The min-maxed character issue is a big problem in the d20 system, I think it has some good aspects but is mostly bad, and I think there are ways around this too. But in the D&D context it’s a bit unreasonable to complain that, say, a thief is guaranteed to be able to do X or if you max out your social skill you can get an NPC to top themselves, in a system where wizards get a wide range of options to do things no-one else can do, and save-or-die is an allowable mechanic. It could be argued that a bard being able to convince you to top yourself by rolling above 100 is no different to a save or die mechanic.

    Also, I don’t remember you whining about social skills when Russell Ganymede got a natural 20 to convince the British General to follow his perfect battle tactic!

    Bloody hippies… I’m off to the gym!

  8. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    “It could be argued that a bard being able to convince you to top yourself by rolling above 100 is no different to a save or die mechanic.”
    The difference is that a Finger of Death requires you to fail a save and has counters such as Death Ward spells. By contrast the “Top yourself” command using Diplomacy has doesn’t allow the target a roll and doesn’t have a counter. If two maxed out Diplomacy bards try to convince each other to top themselves then the winner is the one who rolls first.

    “I don’t remember you whining about social skills when Russell Ganymede got a natural 20 to convince the British General to follow his perfect battle tactic!”
    If you think back you’ll find I was actually relieved to find that we had a plan we were following even though I thought it was a terrible plan.

  9. […] to Faustus. He made me snort my coke this evening with his hilarious ending sentence to this post. Comments RSS […]

  10. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Paul, if you think the alignment system has any relation to real life philosophy, I pity you.

  11. Stuart Avatar

    if you think the alignment system has any relation to real life philosophy, I pity you.

    Good = Altruistic
    Neutral = Most People
    Evil = Antisocial personality disorders

  12. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Uh… no. Sorry.

    Are you making the claim that Drow are an entire race of anti-social individuals? How do they organize themselves? How do they breed and raise families? How to they educate their young? No, evil is not anti-social.

    Good vs Evil as imagined in D&D is a farsical joke. Anyone who actually believes in Good vs Evil in real life is merely a fool. There is no good and evil, there are differences in value.

    For example, if I place a higher value on honor than on life, then I may kill my daughter when she is raped. This is actually a big issue in modern societies with significant muslim populations. The people who place a higher value on life than honor think honor-killings are a terrible evil. I actually think honor-killings should not be allowed, because I believe in a right-based morality system that values individual rights. However, in the course of human history that is a minority view and it would be quite daring of me to claim that I am absolutely right and everyone who disagrees is absolutely wrong and… evil.

    Good and evil are just labels we attach to things that do not conform to our views on morality and ethics. This is actually the fundamental principle behind Godwin’s Law. Eventually, someone will disagree but have no argument, so they associate their enemy with Nazi’s to brand them as evil and thus end the discussion. It is a stupid thing. A sad thing, a reminder of how primitive most people’s morality actually is and how little introspection they engage in.

  13. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Greg I think Paul is giving an implicit reference to a two-dimensional measurement of morality (with a social dimension corresponding to “good” vs. “evil” and a repressive dimension corresponding to chaos vs. law) rather than a strict claim that he follows the alignment system in real life. But he could be just tossing a troublemaker’s comment out there, since he is mostly CN.

    Stuart, I don’t think people with APSD are evil, they have a clinically diagnosed mental health problem. I also think most people can be construed as altruistic.

    I think that the good and neutral parts of the alignment system actually work pretty well in conjunction with the chaos/evil/law dimension. The problem, as ever, is in the definition of evil. I’d like to hope we’ll have that fixed here, on my blog, by comment number 20, but I may be over-optimistic about the philosophical skills of my commenters.

  14. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    oops that should say chaos/neutral/law.

  15. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Paul @8, I like the idea of initiative as a saving throw! However, it’s also possible that you could make it a contested social skill roll, yes? Diplomacy vs. … oh, D&D doesn’t have a defensive social skill.

    This is the problem I aimed to solve with my system adjustments (as you know), but we ran into the problem of skills that aren’t specialist being way too low, rendering characters almost defenseless outside of their specialty (as in the example of Anna Labrousse at the bottom of this post. Some would say this is a feature of a good system, but I agree with you that it’s a bug.

    I think you could adapt the exalted idea of social combat quite easily by giving characters “wounds” in social (maybe based on charisma) and giving them a social defense skill (let’s call it “resilience”). Then you’ve got a save, and a target. Spells like charm person could be designed to max out the opponents social damage, or perhaps to just do damage; and physical damage could be construed as social wounds for the purpose of intimidation. I’ll be coming back to this in a post shortly.

    As for save-vs-die, it’s true that if someone sacrifices armour and defense and hit points then they deserve to specialise in this; but isn’t such a claim exactly the same as complaining that under a skill system, people are useless outside of their specialty? It’s good in the case of wizards but bad in the case of bards?

    I do recall now that your position on Ganymede’s tactic was that it would never work but try if you like… ah the days when the main plan was “don’t dither!”

  16. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Chaos/neutral/law is equally non-sensical, Faustus.

    People can have a desire to be autonomous in multiple dimensions. They may accept heavy submission to authority in some respects and not in others. They may only follow laws they ethically agree with except when forced by coercion (i.e. they may speed on the highway but pay taxes). People draw distinctions between different violations of the law; murder, theft, traffic, taxes, libel, the list goes on. They may vary in their respect for the law depending on spatial considerations and the practical strength of the authority (wild west vs lawful east, piracy, etc).

    The idea that some people are chaotic and others are lawful is just dumb. I can’t mince words on that. You know I am right.

  17. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Faustus, I think the larger issue in the social combat arena is that social damage directed at PCs undermines the player’s sense of agency and autonomy.

  18. Stuart Avatar

    @Greg: I’m not a moral relativist.

    @faustusnotes: They have a clinically diagnosed mental health problem that *can* cause evil behaviour. Is someone a sociopath if they don’t behave like a sociopath? etc. etc.

  19. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    well yes, but we’re talking about a morality for a game here, it’s not like it has to perfectly mimic every aspect of real life. It gives a basic framework for basic decisions.

    Of course, the fact that noone cared about its inadequacies for a long time says a lot about the preferences of the gamer world. But that’s a different story.

  20. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Stuart, I think actually “sociopathy” and “APSD” are categorically different entries in the DSMIV (don’t know though), and generally APSD doesn’t lead to “evil” actions, just very selfish and weird ones.

    Also, as any good religious apologist can tell you, if someone is not free to do moral reasoning (because, for example, their madness prevents them from comprehending good vs. evil) then they can’t, by definition, be evil, since evil requires a conscious decision to do something wrong.

    Do you believe that someone should be punished equally for negligent driving that led to a death, and for killing someone who slighted them based on a carefully constructed plan they thought out in advance and carried out perfectly, in cold blood?

  21. Stuart Avatar

    @faustusnote: Ok, whatever umbrella term would cover sociopaths, psycopaths etc. It’s been ages since I took a Psych. course.

    In a simplisitc 3-tier system of categorizing people as Good / Neutral / Evil I wouldn’t have any trouble choosing which category to put Leatherface into – even though his madness may prevent proper freedom of moral reasoning. 🙂

  22. Greg Christopher Avatar

    @Stuart

    ROFL. Of course you are not a moral relativist. Neither are the muslims doing the honor-killing. Neither were the Americans who nuked the “evil” Japanese, nor the Japanese who raped and tortured the Chinese. Neither were the guys dropping Agent Orange, neither were the Viet Cong on the ground. Neither were the 9/11 hijackers, neither were the B52 bombadiers, neither were the special forces on the ground in Afghanistan, neither were the Blackwater contractors. The Spanish that slaughtered the Aztecs were not moral relativists either, nor the Aztecs who sacrified people to their imaginary god. The Soviets building the perfect society were not moral relativists either, nor were the Nazis. The British who conquered the largest empire in human history were not moral relativists, nor the French, nor the Belgians in their mass-grave called the Congo. The Australians were not moral relativists when they murdered the Aboriginals, nor the Americans in Hawaii.

    There are few places on this Earth safe from the violent greedy bastards who believe they have the one right and good truth above all else. How many people have been slaughtered in the name of such foolishness?

    There are no genocides in history committed by moral relativists.

    Nobody holds the monopoly on truth. Sorry to break it to you.

  23. Stuart Avatar

    Blah Blah The Soviets building the perfect society were not moral relativists either, nor were the Nazis. Blah Blah

    +

    This is actually the fundamental principle behind Godwin’s Law. Eventually, someone will disagree but have no argument, so they associate their enemy with Nazi’s to brand them as evil and thus end the discussion. It is a stupid thing.

    =

    Awesome! 😀

  24. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I don’t think that gotcha works, Stuart.

    Also, I’m not sure that leatherface works for your simplistic system. From the first paragraph of that wikipedia entry:

    The original film never shows Leatherface without one of his human-flesh masks on. He differs from other horror film killers, in that the film does not portray him as sadistic or a rapist, but as mentally retarded. Leatherface does his killing at the request of his family. Hansen has stated that Leatherface is “completely under the control of his family. He’ll do whatever they tell him to do. He’s a little bit afraid of them.” In the documentary The Shocking Truth, Tobe Hooper portrays Leatherface as a “big baby” who kills in self-defense because he feels threatened. In the first film, Leatherface shows fear when new people enter his home.

    So already we have motivations and cultural background, and a social framework for his “madness.” Maybe he’s a tool, being manipulated by his evil family, and not evil at all? Maybe he lacks the capacity to properly reason out his crimes and his family are using him? I think General Bison from Streetfighter (the movie) is a better model for absolute evil.

  25. Greg Christopher Avatar

    I think I was pretty equal opportunity on the genocidal regimes there.

    From Wikipedia:
    “Godwin’s law applies especially to inappropriate, inordinate, or hyperbolic comparisons of other situations (or one’s opponent) with Hitler or Nazis or their actions. The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering genocide”

    We are actually discussing morality and the claim that moral absolutism leads to genocide at the extreme is a relevant claim to the discussion.

    It would be hard to misread my comment to say that I was implying that you were a Nazi. My claim was that failure to account for other people having a different concept of morality from you leads down the path to political violence. I cited numerous historical references, of which one was the Nazis.

    Also from the Wiki article:
    “Godwin’s law itself can be abused, as a distraction, diversion or even censorship, that fallaciously miscasts an opponent’s argument as hyperbole, especially if the comparisons made by the argument are actually appropriate.”

  26. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Two phrases I hate on the internet: “Godwin’s Law” and “ad hominem” (with all its misspellings).

    I’m disappointed, we’re 25 comments in now and you guys haven’t solved the Problem of Evil.

  27. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Here is your solution, Faustus:

    There is no evil. Evil is something you only imagine exists in others but not yourself. You have never committed evil. You have been misled, made mistakes, been ignorant, reacted without thought, etc etc. You have never committed evil, yet you imagine that other people in the world do so. Therefore, evil is an illusion created by your mind to explain behavior for which you have inadequate information to understand.

    Can we move on to more serious philosophical issues now? 🙂

  28. Stuart Avatar

    @faustusnotes: Have you seen TTCM? That wikipedia write up makes it sound like a different movie.

    Anyway, we’re not talking about Skill Systems in OSR games anymore, and we’ve moved past an example of how it’s possible to relate the alignment system to real life philosophy.

    Debating the merits of moral relativism vs. other philosophies doesn’t interest me much… so I’ll leave you guys to sort out “the Problem of Evil” 🙂

  29. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Obviously I’m not evil, Greg. What we’re talking about here is what precisely we should do about you. YOU are obviously evil.

    Regarding social attacks on PCs being a denial of agency – this is true, but no more, I think, than charm spells or other enchantments. I tend to stick only to the rule that PCs can’t do social attacks on PCs.

  30. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Oh and Stuart, thanks for commenting on my blog, please feel free to come back despite the undeniable evilness of the other commentators 🙂

    I have seen TTCM, btw, and I thought it was a horrible and evil movie about evil people that should never have been made. Though it’s 10 million times better than The Descent, which is great. And I don’t recall having any sympathy for (or even noticing) the social determinants of Leatherface’s evil. But I was probably too busy freaking out to see the pain and loneliness in his eyes…

  31. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Fair enough, Stuart.

    I will make the claim then that alignment is a piss-poor representation of moral philosophy, serves no significant game purpose except to justify the slaughter of certain races without consequences or consideration (ex. Drow). It is a dodge to remove any serious morality from the game and replace it with a proxy for group identification such that slaughter of the other group becomes justifiable.

    Good and evil might as well be red and blue. The labels mean nothing.

  32. Greg Christopher Avatar

    @ Faustus

    I was just thinking the same about you. Perhaps we can both cast Protection from Evil on ourselves, then cast Inflict Wounds on each other with evil intent in our hearts. This would activate the Gygaxian Paradox, causing a rift in the space-time continuum, and destroying the universe. Of course, the destruction may be limited to our own galaxy.

  33. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I don’t think it’s a dodge, Greg – it’s an open attempt to create a system under which the PCs have definite enemies whose complete extermination is justified. Much of the original structure of D&D (“kill people and steal their stuff”) would have been impossible for any other definitions of “people.”

    I think this is a pretty enduring property of fantasy games and part of the reason people enjoy them – the escapism of not having to faff around with moral relativism.

  34. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I, for one, enjoy not having to spend whole minutes working out a moral relativist dodge before I backstab the hairy dark-skinned guy who doesn’t look much like me. I can only do this because I’m Good.

    Actually my Dwarf in Pathfinder a month ago did get to play his alignment. Being Lawful Neutral he could threaten to tie the gnoll to the slippery dip for gianty squish-action; but when the gnoll talked he was thus obliged to keep him alive.

    Imagine if I’d had to make a decision like that on the basis of real values like compassion, using some kind of ethical framework! Bugger that!

  35. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Are you trying to argue my own point back at me, thinking I will disagree with myself out of spite? 😉

  36. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    That wouldn’t be very Lawful Neutral, would it?

  37. Greg Christopher Avatar

    I think you could probably make dozens of different arguments about what would and would not be Lawful Neutral in that circumstance.

    What law is binding on the giants? Or the Gnolls? Which political system has jurisdiction in the matter? What defenses are entitled to the defendant? What legal powers are possessed by your dwarf? Can one be a Lawful vigilante? What entitles your Dwarf to make legal judgments on behalf of the human settlement that is threatened by the giants? Who owns the land and has the right to use it as they please? What authority establishes these rights? Is that law fair and impartial to all races? Is this territory part of a larger kingdom with a higher political authority? Who can command the law in an absence of a monopoly on violence? Etc ad infinitum.

    And I just looked at law so far. I havent even started on neutral.

  38. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Okay, I have to retire for the evening (nearly 12:30 AM here). I shall pick up the torch in the morrow.

  39. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    What law is binding on the giants? Physics, in this instance, as they were on the slippery dip
    Or the Gnolls? Mine
    Which political system has jurisdiction in the matter? They’re all a very long way away
    What defenses are entitled to the defendant? I WAS the defense – everyone else just wanted to kill him
    What legal powers are possessed by your dwarf? A big hammer, and Faith in my dark and beardy gods
    Can one be a Lawful vigilante? Let’s ask the gnoll *kick* he says yes
    What entitles your Dwarf to make legal judgments on behalf of the human settlement that is threatened by the giants?It’s a libertarian frontiersman’s utopia, and we had a very strong contract
    Who owns the land and has the right to use it as they please?There are probably some indigenous people somewhere hereabouts, but like I said, frontiersman’s utopia…
    What authority establishes these rights?
    Is that law fair and impartial to all races? Not by a long shot
    Is this territory part of a larger kingdom with a higher political authority? No, but once I gain some levels it will be
    Who can command the law in an absence of a monopoly on violence? Anyone with a big enough hammer and sufficiently beardy Gods

  40. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    Greg Christopher @10
    “Paul, if you think the alignment system has any relation to real life philosophy, I pity you.”

    What? You’re saying Nietzsche is anything other than Lawful Evil?

    Nah. I mean that having a common set of examples that can be compared to when discussing (or even just thinking) about moral or immoral behaviour is useful. Even at it’s worst (i.e. “Goblin genocide for great justice”) the system is useful as a thought experiment you can disagree with.

    If you prefer using other examples or you’ve found something else that works for you, great.

    @12
    “There is no good and evil, there are differences in value.”
    I don’t know if I’d go this far, as its relative easy to come up with acts that have no redeeming value whatsoever. Such a thing could be labelled as evil and it’s probably best from a societal viewpoint that we can regard such things as that. While I agree with you that good and evil are merely labels, they are very useful labels.

    “…if I place a higher value on honor than on life, then I may kill my daughter when she is raped. This is actually a big issue in modern societies with significant muslim populations. The people who place a higher value on life than honor think honor-killings are a terrible evil.”
    Sorry, I didn’t elaborate on this earlier. The “shades of grey” I mentioned in comment 6 was a reference to exactly this sort of definition of “good”.

    I’ve got to note that you seem to have spent some time thinking about this sort of thing. Did you do a philosophy course or read some books on it? For me introspection like this was frequently triggered by reading fantasy books (including D&D) and thinking about how such concepts applied to my life.

    Faustusnotes @13
    “But he could be just tossing a troublemaker’s comment out there, since he is mostly CN.”
    I would like to note that if there is any chance of causing anyone to have an embolism then I’m quite happy to claim I strictly follow the alignment system. But that’d just be me acting Chaotic Troll. 😉

    “I also think most people can be construed as altruistic.”
    I do have to note that in D&D being generally altruistic but not acting on it gets you an alignment of neutral. Highlighting that actions are important for claiming to be “good” is one of the things I think is helpful from this system in real life.

    Greg Christopher @22
    “There are no genocides in history committed by moral relativists.”
    This is fact of history, but it’s not a feature of moral relativism. I’m a moral relativist in that I accept everyone has different moral standards they apply and they these all have some validity. I just also accept that the moral standards I happen to hold include the free right to stomp over other’s moral standards. And I also accept that there is no absolute reason for me to hold that belief.

    I think I would need to either examine my logic more (or maybe less) in order to get to the correct modern Western moral relativism. Or maybe I just fail morality forever 😉

    Greg Christopher @27
    Here’s an alternate solution for “The Problem of Evil”. It really exists. In fact, it’s behind you right now!!!

    Greg Christopher @31
    “I will make the claim then that alignment is a piss-poor representation of moral philosophy, serves no significant game purpose except to justify the slaughter of certain races without consequences or consideration (ex. Drow).”
    Poorly played I think this is 100% true. And frankly I think playing it well is extremely difficult. On the other hand it is a little useful at least for letting the DM stick the players with a moral delema and then pointing out that the players have said that they are all trying to play “good” people, which can lead to more interesting role-playing.

    On a third hand, if I wanted to get together with imaginary people and commit genocide on a bunch of people who have green skin (and no toilets [1]) then even the best possible alignment system isn’t going to stop that.

    Faustusnotes @39
    LOL!

    [1] I have an obsession with dungeon toilets. Don’t ask.

  41. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    Back on the topic of social mechanics:

    faustusnotes @15

    Yeah, adding an extra damage track to the game to measure social damage is an interesting mechanic that I like. When doing it, however, you need to make sure to set a difference between influencing characters in a way the player is OK with (i.e. changing food preferences, following a different plan, whether the rogue should be allowed out at night without an escort to keep him from robbing everyone in town blind) and things that would spoil the fun they get from their character (killing innocents, abandoning friends, torture, casual genocide, basically anything else I ever advocated while playing with you). 😉

    “As for save-vs-die, it’s true that if someone sacrifices armour and defense and hit points then they deserve to specialise in this;”
    I didn’t say that sacrificing armour and hit points should get you a save versus die ability. I said it meant that magic niches should be protected due to their cost. The uber-diplo-bard by comparison is a “Die and suck it” ability, which deserves no niche protection. A better example is that a bard sacrifices less to get access to magic, but doesn’t get the same range of magic or level of power as a wizard. That’s just fine with me. By contrast nothing you sacrifice should let you get an insta-kill ability that has no counter.

    Greg @17

    I agree. Any social mechanics need to work hand in hand with:
    1. A system that separates core issues for the character that are invulnerable to the mechanics from non-core issues that other characters in the game can stuff with
    2. A discussion amongst the players on what is a core and non-core issue
    You’d probably also want to set some rules around what can ignore these issues and how it’ll be handled (i.e. DM: Charm Person can make you turn against your party, but I promise that I’ll never kill anyone off using this tactic and it’ll only be to advance the story)

    Faustus @29
    “Regarding social attacks on PCs being a denial of agency – this is true, but no more, I think, than charm spells or other enchantments. I tend to stick only to the rule that PCs can’t do social attacks on PCs.”
    One thing I liked about Exalted’s system was that I could have players attack each other socially to inflict things like “Bob is your friend” or “Dislike mimes” or even “Save me first”. As long as the players can handle the sort of attacks being thrown around then it’s all just fun. That means you do have to watch out for “Sleep with me” leading to another player feeling their character has been raped [1].

    [1] Let’s assume I don’t need to go into how this is bad or the sort of things a group needs to do to ensure it doesn’t happen

  42. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Regarding the issue of genocide and moral absolutism, and Paul’s response that some acts have no redeeming value whatsoever, if we look at it in this context…

    There’s an excellent book called “Architects of Destruction” (I think[1]) which argues that the Nazis got at least some of their ideas on genocide from Stalin’s “work” with the collectivisation of farms (and destruction of the kulaks) in the 20s and 30s. It’s possible to argue based on their work that this apparently very evil act was a crucial component in the Russian victory over Hitler. From the point of view, at least, of the majority of Russians who were slated for only one fate under Hitler, this bad act had a very definite redeeming feature.

    I would go further and argue that Stalin and communism generally was very far from morally absolute. Dialectic materialism is founded in notions of objective historical progress, which is why the Stalinists abandoned their “comrades” in Spain to fascism, and dealt with Hitler before they didn’t deal with him. They were actually pretty close to the classic right wing shibboleth of the moral relativist. A really good text on the underlying moral relativism of their theories (rather than just their actions, which could be construed in the real world as just realpolitik) is Darkness At Noon by Arthur Koestler, which I strongly recommend. I might even go out on a limb and say it’s a better read than 1984, though not necessarily a better book.

    Incidentally Paul, that’s quite an eloquent defense of the alignment system.

    fn1: i often partially confuse this title with a Megadeth song, and I make no apologies for this.

  43. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    If I get a chance today I’m going to write up a brief commentary on social damage in a d20-based system, Paul. But I’m running short of time, so it may wait till tomorrow…

  44. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    I concede that the acts with no redeeming value are edge cases. But I’ll bet I can find some for you.

    Would you care to explain how the Holocaust was a good thing? [1]

    Also cases of rape, murder and torture for the pleasure of their perpetrators aren’t justifiable.

    I concede you can construct a (flimsy) defence of those based on “At least the perp enjoyed it.” [2] But if you’ve constructed your argument that way you’re then vulnerable to examples of deeds that didn’t help anyone or change anything, such as final assaults in the lead up to the Armistice in World War I. Ultimately those just resulted in pointless death which would qualify as evil.

    Basically I’m arguing that acts with no redeeming characteristics aren’t large ones where a mistake was made, or a case can be made that it was thought best at the time, or even that it worked out for the best. I’m talking about the small acts where one person does something horrible to another because the first person is an asshole.

    [1] Nah seriously, don’t bother. We all know that’s an easy one for pointing to as an absolute evil. And I don’t know anyone who enjoys even theoretical defences of it.

    [2] Seriously, arguing that does make you a horrible person.

  45. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    I reserve the right to savage any proposed social system despite my earlier support of one just because I’m a nasty piece of work.

    Plus I know you love the attention. 🙂

  46. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    agreed entirely!

  47. Greg Christopher Avatar

    I can make a defense of the Holocaust. But I want to state in advance that I believe the value proposition presented in this post does NOT, in my view, outweigh the suffering it causes.

    Nazism is based on the concept of racial purity. The Jews were not members of the German racial group as defined by Hitler, thus they were valid targets of persecution by Nazi standards in much the same way as africans in the USA under slavery (also a racialist system). The Jews were additionally social scapegoats that were useful to the Nazi regime to hide its excesses, much like immigrants in most countries that are “stealing jobs”. These convenient political scapegoats help the population tolerate abrasive government policies that they might otherwise reject. Further, the Jews were in possession of above-average personal wealth compared to other citizens and owned land in conquered territories that the Nazis wanted to give to their own citizens.

    Therefore, the Holocaust is a decision by the Nazis to trade the lives of the Jews for the political cover they provide and the material gains of confiscating their land and wealth.

    This bargain seems grotesque and extreme to us today, but it’s base logic is actually quite similar to the treatment of native peoples by Europeans throughout the world. The native american’s land was extremely valuable to the European, so the native was exterminated or driven away. The only substantive reason why people hold up the Holocaust as a unique example of evil is that it was meticulously recorded. Both scenarios involve deaths in the millions & extreme brutality. See the history of Aboriginals, Africans, Pacific Islanders, etc for other similar cases. There are some minor differences in that native americans were also ravaged by diseases (in addition to the millions intentionally slaughtered), killed by relatively independent agents spread across a diffuse geographic area (but with a common mission), and technological differences (which are really only measures of efficiency). If the Spanish could have killed native americans using machine guns and toxic gas, they would have. They simply lacked that technology. But the intent was the same.

    Actually, the pressure of free-thinking philosophically-inclined people has generally reduced brutality over time. Google Steven Pinkers “Myth of Violence” video for more details. The number of people killed violently in the 20th century is actually a far smaller percentage of the total population than previous centuries.

  48. Greg Christopher Avatar

    @ Paul

    Actually, you are obligated to consider the pleasure/pain of both sides of the equation in evaluating value. It is the entire basis of utilitarianism, actually.

    Lets take a basic example. I want to have sex. My desire for sex is weighed against your desire for me not to have sex with you. By most moral standards, your desire to not engage in sex outweighs my desire to do so. This is the basis of the crime of rape. It is precisely because we make judgments about the relative value to all involved parties that we can even call things “Crimes”. A crime is an act which costs an individual, or society as a whole, a costs that is not correlated to the benefits.

    This isnt just for serious crimes. We have speed limits because the safety of others outweighs your desire to drive fast. People who argue against speed limits do so using studies that show that having a speed limit may actually make the road less safe for others. It is all about relative costs and benefits.

    These are not my principles. These are facts of social structure.

  49. Greg Christopher Avatar

    @ Faustus

    Actually, I think your characters are precisely the kind of criminals that the giant society needs to take seriously. Here we have a case of a small group of invaders coming into giant territory and setting up a town. Then when they expand to the point that the giants are a problem for them, they enlist the help of mercenaries to launch guerilla attacks. These mercenaries go on to murder innocent giants engaging in their favorite pasttime.

    Truly a crime that should be stopped. The giants must form a posse and exact justice from these insolent invaders.

  50. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    1. As I said, I’m OK with not seeing even a theoretical defence of the Holocaust.

    2. If you want to define “good” in that way then you are:
    a) defining it in a manner that will be instinctively rejected by everyone any of us would want to meet [1]
    b) ensuring that “acts with no value” can be defined as acts that people didn’t want to perform that did not have a material benefit for anyone. Last minute failed attacks before a ceasefire is the easiest example I can think of for this, though there would be others.

    I am aware of the measurement systems utilitarianism uses and that they theoretically allow for horrible acts as long as the perpetrator enjoys them enough. However I wasn’t arguing from a utilitarian viewpoint. My arguments were that acts with no value could be defined as evil (and there are acts of no value under utilitarianism, even if they’d tend to be driven by mistakes) and before that, that the D&D alignment system provides a starting point for thought and debate.

    Given that we’ve had 30+ posts on morality of fantasy worlds here I think I stand proven that its a starting point. I’d also argue our shared view of the (simplistic) system means that we can skip over a lot stating assumptions. Even the points on “What is evil” or “People can obey just some laws”[3] which debate the underlying assumptions at least benefit from a shared knowledge of what the underlying assumptions are. Good luck having a debate in a first yeah uni philosophy class and getting to start this far advanced into the debate.

    [1] I’m assuming your arguing this for fun the same way I do. If you actually want to believe this sort of stuff for reals then please let me know so I can go away. [2]

    [2] Sorry, that isn’t to say I believe this (your other statements have not been horrible to the level where it would seem in character), but I may as well be upfront about my level of comfort in debates.

    [3] In D&D, this would be Neutral on the Law/Neutral/Chaos spectrum. A Lawful character would obey laws they dislike or only disregard them when they have a valid Good/Evil reason to disregard them (which is prioritising the other axis of their alignment). This is also why D&D has most NPC characters as true neutral, they’re sort of altrustic, but they don’t act on it, and they obey the laws except when they think its inconvenient and they can get away with it. That also pretty well describes the vast masses of real life humans.

  51. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    but Greg, most people say that doing something cruel to someone else to benefit yourself is the basic definition of wrong. I think your defense of the holocaust is just that, with the obvious qualification that a bunch of people agreed so under some shared moral system it was good and right.

    Oh, and in your putative holocaust defense, one minor point that does shit me is the claim that the Jews were of “above average wealth.” The book I referenced above makes a pretty strong case that the opposite was true. Or at least that the majority of Jews were poorer than the majority of Germans (so if Jewish wealth was above average there could have been a few hyper-rich Jews). This is where the lessons of Stalin come in, because these below-average-wealth Jews were unproductive, and in shifting to a war economy there was a benefit in getting rid of them and consolidating their businesses under Aryan ownership. This makes the morality of the anti-semitic crusade conveniently economically beneficial to the majority, and strips it of a claim to be “doing the right thing,” reducing it to the act of violent theft.

    But, in the interests of all of us not having to purify ourselves afterwards, and my blog not being misrepresented 10 years from now when I run for prime minister, let’s drop the exercise in defending the indefensible (at least in real life – fantasy genocides are completely different).

    Actually there are some arguments that the Nazis prosecuted the holocaust even when it disadvantaged them, so saw it as a moral crusade, not just a convenient and beneficial act. That would make them lawful good in their own eyes[1]. The book I referenced above rubbishes this view, and argues that the holocaust stepped up in grades because of its continuing and evolving usefulness – the primary focus being about food distribution. It’s an interesting and horrible read.

    On utilitarianism, I actually see utilitarianism as a good technical method for applying an existing moral framework. Given you have defined what is wrong and right, and what is good and bad, and what is of utility and what isn’t, then utilitarianism is, I think, the only effective way to resolve the moral conflicts that institutions (and often individuals) face in ordinary circumstances. But it doesn’t give any clue as to the underlying morality. Whether it’s better than “do unto your neighbour…” for individuals I don’t know, but from an institutional point of view it’s probably the best we’ve got and certainly an underpinning value of social democracy (which in my view is the best system we currently have).

    fn1: actually from the very first time my mates and I encountered the alignment system, we found ourselves thinking “but wouldn’t many of these so-called evil races think of themselves as good?” and also “these LG characters strike me as possibly very very bad to be around.”

  52. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Greg @49: bring it on!!! Every one of those buggers is a huge pile of experience points on legs! My beardy gods smile upon my holy activities, and anyone who profanes them with epiphets like “criminal” will meet my hammer.

    Everyone knows that by definition Dwarves cannot be “criminal”. The word has a clear etymology in Old Dwarvish, deriving from the Old Dwarvish “shitstick,” which was a polite term for “elf” (*spits*). I suggest you revise your history lessons, starting with the one ENGRAVED ON MY HAMMER.

  53. Greg Christopher Avatar

    @ Faustus, I agree with your statements on utilitarianism. It is merely an adjudication principle, not a true moral philosophy, and must be placed on top of an existing moral framework.

    Regarding the Jews, I am open to being corrected but my understanding was that European Jewry in the early 20th century was above average wealth. That is certainly my experience with Jews in the United States and the historical experience of the Jews vis-a-vis Usury reinforces that understanding. Please provide some citations so that I might educate myself further. Regardless, as it relates to the argument at hand, you would merely be replacing one of my points with an equally salient one.

    Certainly we can all agree that doing something cruel to someone without justification is wrong. The question is, what is cruel and who is someone? Humans have a historical pattern of manipulating these definitions to suit their self-interest. Jews under the Nazis conveniently ceased being persons, and it happened so fast that it was actually quite surprising to many them. An impartial observer in the late 1800s would conclude that the German Jews were fully integrated into German society. Clearly, things can change.

  54. Greg Christopher Avatar

    @ Paul

    I was not arguing that anything was good. The Holocaust was certainly not good in my view. My point was that the logic of the Holocaust is not unique in history and that it made moral sense to those committing it. I think it is very useful to examine even the most reprehensible things in history (of which the Holocaust is one) for what they teach us about the logic of other behavior. Typically, great “evil” is merely the extrapolation of a logic that you would accept in a limited circumstance out into an extreme position, at which point you realize it is wrong.

    For example, you probably feel that family inheritance is a justifiable practice. Maybe even a “good” practice. You may even believe that it is a sacrosanct right which the state has no justification for interfering in. Certainly, many in the USA believe in that last position, given our recent political debates about the “death tax”.

    The problem is that if you take that logic and then take it out to the extreme, you get one person eventually owning everything in the universe. If wealth is never torn down, it multiplies to the point that it undermines everything else. You could even build a political philosophy against monarchy on the grounds that it is the highest form of inheritance, pitted against other inheritances in the form of other monarchs, which sucks people into wars over the property rights of a handful of people. Inheritances are consolidated until they run into other inheritances, at which point the two (or more) opposed parties can either fight or buy each other out. Examine the 17th and 18th centuries through this lens and it may open your eyes.

    Furthermore, inheritance spills over into the internal society underneath the state and causes vast inequalities. A child growing up in a rich neighborhood is inherently advantaged compared to one from a poor neighborhood. That is not to say that exceptions dont occur and you get an occasional failure or brillant success; despite the odds. But the odds are what they are, tilted in the favor of those with inheritances.

    By taking the principle to the extreme, you see more clearly the broader consequences of your belief. You can also take the principle and apply it to a different situation, thus exposing the potential weakness of an argument. The Nazis, for example, were charged with the crime of “aggression” in that they invaded other states without justification under international law. Who set the international law? Those states which previously invaded others without justification, built massive empires, and now control all the power to make international law. Glass houses and stones are coming to mind.

    History is written by the victors. This is nothing new. Had the Nazi’s won, we would be having a different discussion; probably about the moral weaknesses of the French and the Soviets. My point has nothing to do with the Nazis per se, but that there is no “good” or “evil” and hence D&D alignment is useless.

    And if D&D alignment serves as focus of discussion by being horribly wrongheaded, then I guess your point is made. But I could just as easily make a different horribly wrongheaded statement to serve as a starting point.

  55. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Greg, here’s a review of the book I read, with some critical comments on its underplaying of racial ideology and some allusions to the economic unproductiveness of German and Polish Jews. It’s an interesting read and, according to that review, flawed but not useless (as opposed to some other books on the same topic I made the mistake of reading!) There’s some interesting comments on statisticians and modernity at the end.

    It’s worth remembering that the image of the Jew as rich elite was a popular piece of Nazi mythology about the Weimar period. It may have been true, but I think it’s wise as a starting point to distrust anything you hear about a racial group which conforms too closely to what their enemies think of them; this book suggests my distrust of the propaganda was at least partly right.

  56. Greg Christopher Avatar

    I am fully aware that the image of the Jew is greatly shaped by propaganda. I am also the employee in a small company owned and run by a frugal business-minded well-off Jew. So I approach this with an open mind.

  57. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Thanks for the reference though. I will check it out.

  58. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    I do oppose death taxes, and wealth taxes more generally. I’m perfectly OK with income taxes and while I don’t like extremely high income taxes, I can accept that they can be imposed without being “wrong” from an outcomes viewpoint.

    Your comments on how inherited wealth must always grow ignores the role of inflation, economic growth and depreciation of assets. To put it another way, according to your model if a king’s wealth from the 10th century had been inherited for the past 1000 years without being added to or removed in any way then the inheritor would be as rich as a king, while in fact looking at what a 10th century king had in real terms shows that they’d really be a person with heaps of land, no flushing toilet and a life expectancy of about 40. [1]

    The issues you raise around inheritance are best dealt with via other mechanisms in my opinion.

    I also regard international law as nonsense. I’m OK with what it’s out to do, but asserting that the UN has agreed it therefore everyone should obey it is to wilfully pluck your own eyes out. the real way it works is the Us gets beaten up for it and North Korea is a shithole. International law doesn’t influence that at all. (Whether it should, or if there are better ways to do things is a different debate. International law is an attempt to make things better.)

    We may need to force Faustus to have a new blog post if we want to go into those though 🙂

    Back on the original point, I think we’re in agreement about the actual existence of good or evil. The difference is I’d still argue strongly that they are useful words. When dealing with someone from a similar background they probably let you identify actions/results succinctly. When dealing with someone from a different (i.e. Nazi) background it lets you get an insight to their thinking.

    I accept that your point that a different wrongheaded statement could serve as a starting point, but depending on the statement it may not resonate the way a D&D based statement can on a role-playing discussion blog. For example I’ll never understand sports based analogies, because I put a lot of working into staying ignorant on them 🙂

    [1] I’m expecting your counter argument to be that someone with a 10thC king’s worth of land would have a massive income. This is true. On the other hand you have ignored the cost of defending the land for 1000 years, or even feeding the king. That’s why income and expense plays a larger role than statements on inheritance.

  59. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    yes, we’re straying far off purpose here, and I don’t want to see arguments about international law or inheritance taxes!

    It’s like when Porter was on a defensive slide at first-and-down, and then the quarterback…

    oh, I don’t get that either!

  60. Greg Christopher Avatar

    Nah, my counter argument is that your inheritance simply grows until someone gets violent to stop you. What do you think feudal war is about, really?

    But I will abstain for Faustus’ sake. We wouldnt want him to think his blog was a happenin’ place.

    My ultimate position is that Alignment is a useless mechanism and that D&D would be better off simply removing moral calculus from the game, rather than adopt a weak and flawed model. So you lose a few protection spells, no big deal. It would improve the game.

  61. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I did recently read an interesting description of how feudal society could become a modern democracy simply through contract law, as an example of libertarian societies becoming non-libertarian by choice.

    But, other blogs, other times, this is not a happenin’ blog, no sirree!

    I think a different game would be better off without alignment; I like it in D&D. And anyone who wants to remove these crucial LAWS can TALK TO THE HAMMER!

  62. Greg Christopher Avatar

    I dont fear you, bearded one.

    The giants are going to exact vengeance on you one day, just you wait.

  63. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    that’s what the giants said before they felt my beardy wrath (and that of the dragon which they’d been holding in a cage; it’s law was somewhat more authoritative than mine!)

  64. Greg Christopher Avatar

    I’m surprised the giants didnt say “help, help, I’m being repressed”.

    Dwarven tarts waving hammers is no basis for a system of government, after all.

  65. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    hahaha!

  66. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    I can’t believe this entire thread ended up being just a giant lead up to a monty python quote.

    Well actually, I can believe it. It’s just you hope and pray and it seems the day will never come…

    I’m just so happy 🙂

  67. Greg Christopher Avatar

    *bows*

    Thank you! Thank you!

    I’ll be here all week. Tip your waitress! And try the veal!

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