This isn’t really about China Mieville vs. Tolkien at all, but about me vs. the chap Mr. Noisms over at Monsters and Manuals, who has put up a post attacking Mieville’s view of Tolkien and fantasy. This gives me a chance to indulge in a pastime I really enjoy – faux literary criticism – and since I made the mistake of sleeping for an hour at 8pm, and I’m drinking some kind of plum tea with gold flakes in it, I might as well take the time to have a go at Mr. Noisms.

The basis of Mr. Noisms critique of Mieville is his opinions as expressed in this interview, written fully 9 years ago after Mieville had written only 2 novels (King Rat and Perdido Street Station, both of which are very good and very escapist). Mieville has some strong views on Tolkien and he clearly believes that writing is a political project, whether explicitly or implicitly.

Mr. Noisms doesn’t like this idea, I think, and also doesn’t like marxism, and I think this has led to a certain overreaction to Mieville’s opinions. Here are my reactions to the three main criticisms Mr. Noisms levels:

1. Falling for non-fantasy readers’ definitions of fantasy:
In the interview, Mieville is asked why fantasy appears conservative and he answers with the reasons he thinks. He also gives an extra paragraph (which Mr. Noisms didn’t quote!) where he defends fantasy as not conservative. Mr. Noisms argues, however, that

almost no mainstream high-fantasy is like this. Even ‘high fantasy’ writers who I consider to be utterly dire, like David Eddings, Trudi Canavan, Robert Jordan and Weis & Hickman, write novels where female characters are just as strong as men, where peasants are often main characters, where threats are as much from within as from without, and where the idea of kingship itself is challenged.

I don’t know quite where Mr. Noisms gets this from. In David Eddings’s most famous work, the main character is a king hidden away as a peasant, and the threat came from an evil overlord from another land. Likewise Canavan, whose lead character may be a girl but she has the inherited “wealth” of magic – and the threat comes from a nasty country over the hills, which seemed suspiciously Muslim to me. Weis & Hickman’s dark enemy comes from Hell. That’s a pathological external threat, in my book. Kingship is never challenged in any of these books, as witnessed by, for example, the fact that the lead character becomes a King. Even when peasants rise up the ranks it is almost universally due to their inheriting magical powers – usually from someone special – and in the context of fantasy stories magic is pretty clearly a kind of inherited wealth, marking one out as special as much as nobility does in the real world. It’s almost an allegory of the same.

Plus of course a whole bunch of authors – Robert Jordan, that hideous kid who wrote Eragon, and that nasty Goodkind chap, for example – are literally conservative, and if you can’t see that from their works you are reading a very blinkered version of them (a claim Noisms makes of Mieville’s reading of Tolkien). Not to mention that some of them openly state their allegiances. (Orson Scott Card springs to mind, but I suppose he’s sci fi…)

2. A whole load of misconceptions about Tolkien.

This is the bit where Mr. Noisms claims Mieville hasn’t read Tolkien, even though in this section of the interview Mieville quotes Tolkien’s essay on writing fantasy. I don’t think this is a good debating tactic, Mr. Noisms, but I’ll let it slide. How magnanimous of me! But I think it’s a bit mean to say this:

Young fantasy writers often like to talk down Tolkien – they think it makes them look cool and rebellious.

because Mieville was asked to give his opinion in an interview at a Marxist conference, and he gave it. It is actually possible that he genuinely didn’t like Tolkien – many people don’t. I didn’t, and I’m not even half as clever as Mr. Mieville or Mr. Noisms.

In this part of his post, Mr. Noisms says a lot of antagonistic things that I think are misinterpretation of Mieville’s opinions. For example, he says

nor did he write that “the function of fantasy was ‘consolation’” as if it was an “article of policy” for fantasy writers – he only ever wrote about himself and his own point of view, and made no sweeping statements about what the fantasy ‘genre’ (there wasn’t such a thing back then) should be.

but Mieville never made the claim that Tolkien wrote about what the fantasy genre should be. He simply states what Tolkien thinks a fantasy writer should do. The broader claim Mr. Noisms accuses Mieville of making would require Mieville to have presented evidence that Tolkien tried to influence other writers’ underlying philosophy. Given Tolkien’s massive influence, it’s reasonable to claim that his opinions on fantasy writing were adopted by others – but Mieville doesn’t make this claim in the interview. He simply cites Tolkien’s opinion about writing, and criticises it. If Tolkien’s writing about writing is above criticism, then we really are in a dire situation!

Mr. Noisms also takes issue with this:

This arrogant assumption that everybody else, if they are rational adults, must surely be a Revolutionary Socialist and against Tolkien too, frankly pisses me off.

but there’s no evidence anywhere in the interview that Mieville believes this, nor does Mr. Noisms cite any. Mieville criticises Tolkien’s work as “literary comfort food” but he doesn’t criticise Tolkien’s readers. He nowhere argues that people should or shouldn’t want to read this stuff. A common complaint of person A who doesn’t like person B’s politics is that person B wants person A to think like person B because person B gave an opinion. But what is the alternative – that Mieville should shut up and not give interviews?

In essence, Mieville makes it clear he thinks Tolkien has a theory of fantasy stories, and he goes on to criticise this theory, and Mr. Noisms can’t find a strong argument against Mieville’s criticism, because the evidence is there, written by Tolkien. So instead Mr. Noisms gets huffy with Mieville for having an opinion.

3.Thinking that escapism is a bad thing

I think that Mr. Noisms gets a bit disingenuous here. Mieville is asked if he thinks fantasy is escapist (the precise question is pretty unambiguous: “Is fantasy escapist?”). Mieville thinks that a) fantasy is not escapist b) escapism is impossible in literature c) to the extent that any text is “escapist”, non-genre texts can be just as bad and d) under a particular definition of “escapism”, the post-Tolkien trilogy style of fantasy is escapist and many critics of the genre focus on that style when they criticise the whole genre.

Mr. Noisms takes this to mean that Mieville thinks a) all books should be political and b) if they’re political, they’re better and c) if you don’t like that you’re a bad person. I think this is bordering on disingenuous. It’s clear that Mieville is engaging in a particular form of literary criticism (all texts contain political influences from the time of their  writing) which is not just marxist to defend fantasy. Specifically, he states that

Take a book like Rats and Gargoyles by Mary Gentle. It’s set in a fantasy world, and it involves discussions of racism, industrial conflict, sexual passion and so on. Does it really make any sense to say that the book is inherently, because of its genre form more escapist than what Iain Banks calls ‘Hampstead novels’, about the internal bickerings of middle class families who seem hermetically sealed off from wider social conflicts? Just because those books pretend to be about ‘the real world’ doesn’t mean they reverberate in it with more integrity.

He is clearly here arguing that non-fantasy novels are just as “escapist” or more so than fantasy novels, and that it is the content of a novel – not its genre – which determines its vulnerability to this claim. He doesn’t argue that Rats and Gargoyles is good because it’s political and, frankly, I don’t know how Mr. Noisms could argue that he was. He uses this example to argue against the common criticism of fantasy levelled against it by “genre snobs” and “leftists”. He finishes by claiming that fantasy is not escapist. He is defending the genre against what he believes is an unfair criticism. I don’t see how this can justify Mr. Noisms in his final angry denunciation, viz:

Thirdly, escapism is a worthwhile thing in itself, and not something to be sniffed at. As somebody who isn’t a card-carrying member of the Pretentious Socialist Worker Party Elite, I like to sometimes jack my brain out of the Capitalist hellhole in which I find myself and in which my “every human impulse is repressed” and just, you know, think about something mindblowing and weird and get away from the world. Am I supposed to feel bad about that because China Mieville thinks I should constantly be engaging with “the real world” and if not I’m being “mollycoddled” and “comforted”? Fuck that.

Also, the claim that fiction should “always, always be about the story and that’s all that a fiction writer should care about when he’s writing” is, frankly, silly. It also falls into exactly the trap which Mieville discusses in his criticism of Hampstead novels. If you write a story, you are inserting character, plot and, usually, conflict. You have to make choices about these things. These choices are driven by something, and to pretend that that something can just spring pure and independent of the cultural and political milieu of the writer is hopelessly naive. To suggest as well that one must be compromising the story by inserting political or cultural aims is to make a claim which I would like to humbly suggest that George Orwell, Primo Levi, Umberto Eco, Ursula le Guin, Shakespeare, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, RM Meluch, Earnest Hemingway and Ben Johnson all disagree with. For example.

In summary: Mieville has some serious criticisms of Tolkien and Tolkien’s overarching impact on fantasy writing; he criticises Tolkien’s stated opinions of what a fantasy novel should do, on the grounds that they are limiting and naive; he defends the fantasy genre strongly against the criticism (made by leftists and genre snobs) that it is escapist; he derides the idea that any novel in any genre can escape from reality; he explains why he thinks that fantasy writing can appear conservative but defends the genre against this claim; and nowhere does he claim that a novel is good because of its politics. This seems like a pretty healthy interpretation of the fantasy genre to me,  and a robust defense of the genre against both elitist literary critics and those who think that the genre is shallow because it is politically conservative. I would have thought Mr. Noisms would approve!


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11 responses to “Mieville vs. Tolkien, the stoush of our time”

  1. noisms Avatar

    1. I don’t want to be in the position of defending people like David Eddings and Weis & Hickman, but your reading is very simplistic. Sure, the main threat in the Dragonlance books is from hell. But there is plenty of internal threat also – look at Raistlin. The second trilogy is pretty much all about power corrupting from the inside. And it also challenges notions about kingship and even godhood in its own way.

    Many of the main characters in David Eddings’ books are peasants, and in Robert Jordan’s THE main hero is. David Eddings’ Sparhawk books (I forget the name) go directly against the grain of feudalism, if I remember correctly, but I only read them 12 years ago and am happy to be proved wrong.

    I resent the insinuation that by not quoting Mieville’s next paragraph I was somehow misrepresenting him, by the way. I was explicitly challenging his portrayal of what high fantasy was like, and the fact that he goes on to say “but some other fantasy is good” doesn’t let him off the hook on the fact that he just performed a big hatchet job on some easy targets. There’s a lot wrong with high fantasy of the kind we’re talking about, but it does those writers a disservice to attack them for things which literary snobs think is true about them, but isn’t really.

    And incidentally, there’s nothing wrong with any writer being conservative, and many fantasy writers are conservative. But Mieville’s comments were far more detailed and specific than mere accusations of conservatism. (The whole line about muscular men protecting curvaceous women hasn’t been true of even the most stereotypical fantasy in many, many years, if it ever was. In fact I’d argue the stereotype has gone to the other extreme.)

    2. My specific comment was that Mieville hadn’t read Tolkien at least without his revolutionary socialist hat on. Let’s get that straight off the bat.

    Then let’s re-quote the passage in question: “Tolkien is the wen on the arse of fantasy literature. His oeuvre is massive and contagious – you can’t ignore it, so don’t even try. The best you can do is consciously try to lance the boil. And there’s a lot to dislike – his cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity. Tolkien’s cliches – elves ‘n’ dwarfs ‘n’ magic rings – have spread like viruses. He wrote that the function of fantasy was ‘consolation’, thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader.”

    This isn’t a writer just attacking another writer’s thoughts on fantasy. Look at the last sentence! “He wrote that the fuction of fantasy was ‘consolation’” (never mind that he also talked about two other functions being just as important, one of which Mieville agrees with and talks about in detail), “thereby making it an an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader“. Mieville is clearly reading “On Fairy Stories” as some kind of manifesto or policy statement by Tolkien on what the fantasy genre should be.

    Regarding the other comment on Mieville’s general attitude, I stand by it. Escapism and consolation are a priori treated as bad things and his arguments go from there; he isn’t even interested in explaining what is wrong with those things and why so many millions of people seem to like them. The fact that he isn’t even willing to engage with that argument and considers it already won indicates that he either doesn’t think there are any non-revolutionary socialists any more, or that non-revolutionary socialists are not even worth discussing anything with.

    3. Mr. Noisms takes this to mean that Mieville thinks a) all books should be political and b) if they’re political, they’re better and c) if you don’t like that you’re a bad person. I think this is bordering on disingenuous.

    Now who’s getting disingenuous? Where did I say any of those things? Ditto the comments on Rats and Gargoyles – nowhere do I claim that Mieville thinks the book is good “because it’s political” and nowhere do I talk about it as a political book.

    More broadly, because I think this is the nub of the matter: Mieville is “defending” fantasy from the charge of escapism, right? Therefore, he must think that escapism is a bad thing, right? Well, I don’t agree with that. I think escapism is a good thing and a goal worth trying to achieve. That explains my final “angry denunciation”.

    4. Lastly, I feel like I should say something about this: Also, the claim that fiction should “always, always be about the story and that’s all that a fiction writer should care about when he’s writing” is, frankly, silly. It also falls into exactly the trap which Mieville discusses in his criticism of Hampstead novels. If you write a story, you are inserting character, plot and, usually, conflict. You have to make choices about these things. These choices are driven by something, and to pretend that that something can just spring pure and independent of the cultural and political milieu of the writer is hopelessly naive.

    I agree. Of course the cultural and political milieu of the writer affects the fiction. That’s unavoidable, but it doesn’t mean a writer shouldn’t try to be as purely devoted to the story as he can be. In my opinion when a writer begins deliberately trying to inject political or cultural aims into his fiction it lessens it. Some of the authors you cite are examples of that, though most aren’t. (The fact that hundreds of years later people are still reading different political viewpoints into Shakespeare’s plays indicates that if he was injecting anything into them deliberately, he didn’t do a good job of it.)

  2. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I think I’m going to respond to this comment in chunks separately because it’s too full of good stuff and I have a party starting in an hour (see! I have a life). Regarding conservatism in High Fantasy, I think that’s a blog post waiting to be done right there. I have some particular views on the role of inherited privilege (regardless of whether it’s a peasant who inherits it) as reinforcing a certain libertarian or conservative view of social order, which are particularly well displayed in Harry Potter. Also, in the very start of Eragon a fit mountaineering survivalist-type chap who in no way represents a segment of young male readers of fantasy rescues a female dragon which grows up to have a very dodgy mother-lover-beast of burden relationship with him. Parse that however you like, but don’t try and tell me it’s not just transplanting the writer’s view of reality and politics straight into another world.

    Which brings me on to the main point I want to make here, which concerns escapism. I think you are misinterpreting the meaning of the word in Mieville’s interview. When Mieville talks about escapism, he doesn’t mean “reading for the hell of it”. He clearly appreciates this kind of escapism, which is why he writes novels which are, at their best, fantastically escapist in this sense. He is responding to two other definitions of escapism as they are bandied about by literary critics:

    1. Escapism as absence of political content (or, at the very least, transferral of existing content wholesale and unquestioned into another world): This is the literary critics’ definition of the form of escapism of which they believe fantasy is guilty. Under this critique, the fantasy genre is empty of any meaningful content because it either has nothing interesting to say about human cultural/social relations, or it transfers existing systems wholesale and just turns them into elves and dwarves. Lots of people avoid lots of genres for this reason, and I would suspect that this is partly why you don’t read certain fantasy authors. My god, in Eragon even the dragon’s speech is completely modern American teenager! Your typical literary critic wants to see dramatic insights into fucked up people a la Will Self, or some dramatic insight into the meaning of life. Mieville argues against the notion that this depth (if you want to call it that) is absent from fantasy, and he argues further and strongly against the idea that the genre of a novel has anything to do with the relevance of its content – he does this in the Hampstead Novels comment. This is a strong defense of fantasy as a viable literary form, and a general defense of all forms of genre writing. We should send him money for doing this kind of thing.

    2. Escapism as lack of political critique: I hinted at this on your blog, and I’m sure Mieville has faced this criticism a lot because a lot of left-wing political types think that fantasy as a genre is not capable of saying anything politically meaningful. Obviously if you’re a Marxist writer who wants to use your genre-of-preference as a vehicle for your marxist views this is a problem (and no, it doesn’t matter whether you do this well or not, it’s still a problem). I’m sure that lots of older conservatives think this of fantasy too – that it’s trivial because it has nothing meaningful to say about when life begins. It’s also a problem for people who think that some of their favourite genre authors are actually serious literary figures – I face this comment all the time, “oh yeah, I don’t read that stuff because I need things to be about the real world”. Like Buffy the Vampire Slayer isn’t! And here Mieville again makes a strong defense, arguing that Hampstead Novels are just as empty of political meaning as anything in fantasy, and it’s not the genre which renders the work empty of political meaning so much as the writer’s intention. If the writer intended to write a book which purely preserved existing norms, it doesn’t matter whether the lead character is a 50′ frost giant or a Laaaady in Hampstead.

    Now, whether or not you think that a book should never be deliberately used as a vehicle for politics[1], it is still the case that this genre we like does cop a lot of flak from a lot of different parts of society for these two perceived criticisms, and in general adults do think a text is meaningless if it has nothing relevant to say about their lives and feelings and no meaningful political content. As adults we should respect that these two definitions of escapism are not positive, and I don’t think any critic would confuse them with the simple, pure escapism of enjoying a good read. Nor, in this case, does Mieville.

    The rest has to come later. It’s time to Partteeeee!


    fn1: and I think you don’t, really, if you go through the famous books you like you’ll see they usually are made better by this aspect of their content

  3. noisms Avatar

    Having “no meaningful political content” is not the same as having “nothing relevant to say about [people’s] lives and feelings”. A good story well told has more to say about people’s lives and feelings than any ideological screed.

    You seem to be (in my opinion) confusing having a political stance/content with meaningful dramatic insight. In fact the two are not related, and the former can often detract from the latter. Good stories say something important about human life and human existence simply through an exploration of how human beings behave in a given circumstance. Fantasy stories can be a uniquely powerful vehicle for this, because they can explore how human beings behave in circumstances which real life people can never experience; this exploration of humanity in alien contexts is the genre’s chief strength.

    If an author has a political vision it can neutralise this great strength, because in general political ideologies already supposedly have “the answer” and this prevents open-minded exploration. Marxism is one of the worst ideologies in this regard because its proponents actually believe it explains the world, and are therefore very close-minded – they think they have “the answer” and therefore they aren’t interested in anything else.

    This is completely absurd, because Marxism has proved itself a uniquely awful predictor of both events and human nature, but that’s another debate.

  4. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I agree that they’re not necessarily the same, but many critics think they are. Or seem to. And most marxists think this too, which as I said on your blog is an accusation Mieville will have had to suffer a lot and which he was responding to. I think it’s safe to say, though, that when an author creates a whole alternative society – as almost every fantasy writer does – that there is political content in the creation. Fantasy creates new societies and this has to be a political act. If you decide to recreate the society as we see it now, you’re making a conservative decision. If you decide to make a different society (such as in The Left Hand of Darkness), you’re making a radical decision (I think Goodkind and Orson Scott Card do this on the right, as does RM Meluch). And I think it’s reasonable to say that recreating an imaginary 30s rural idyll is something akin to political escapism. I also think it’s a bit strange to claim that fantasy provides a powerful vehicle for exploring human interaction, but not extend that to the obvious opportunities for political expression inherent in a genre based on building new worlds.

    I would also point out to you that political vision didn’t destroy LoTR, and its entertaining to see you complaining about the inclusion of politics in fantasy while defending an intensely political work. LOTR is a polemic against industrialism and racial mixing, and yet people enjoy it despite that. I would argue that the continuing appeal of the society he imagined, and its continual recreation in more recent work, is a sign that the polemic was an essential part of his work.

  5. noisms Avatar

    Fantasy creates new societies and this has to be a political act.

    No it doesn’t. This is a very fatalist position you’re taking here. Of course a writer’s political views and cultural background subconsciously have an effect on what he writes. But that doesn’t have to make the act of writing fiction, or the act of creating a fantasy world, an unreflexive process, and it doesn’t mean that a writer can’t consciously make decisions on what to write his story about.

    If you decide to recreate the society as we see it now, you’re making a conservative decision. If you decide to make a different society (such as in The Left Hand of Darkness), you’re making a radical decision (I think Goodkind and Orson Scott Card do this on the right, as does RM Meluch).

    Comments like this suggest to me that there isn’t much point in the discussion – we obviously have such different ideas about what fiction is. I don’t buy that “recreating” society as we see it now is intrinsically conservative or that making a different society is intrinsically radical – it depends entirely on the content of the story.

    I would also point out to you that political vision didn’t destroy LoTR, and its entertaining to see you complaining about the inclusion of politics in fantasy while defending an intensely political work. LOTR is a polemic against industrialism and racial mixing, and yet people enjoy it despite that.

    LOTR is not an intensely political work. First and foremost it is a vehicle for popularising a constructed mythology, based on a made-up world which was initially created to give context to a constructed language. Its continued appeal is not down to any polemic. It is down to the fact that it authentically portrays heroism, adventure and tragedy, all of which are the type of things which many people like to read about, and to the fact that it is a sheer feat of imagination and creativity which is not often seen.

    Tolkien had political views which are present in some areas of the fiction, and yes, that weakens the work slightly. I’m not sure I ever said anywhere in the course of this debate that I think LOTR is perfect. But the work is by no means a polemic, and to suggest that the politics is essential to its success is to ignore its many other qualities – and is exactly the kind of thing that turned me off literary criticism as an undergraduate.

  6. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I don’t think there’s anything fatalistic at all about saying that the creation of a new society is a political act. How can it not be? Tolkien didn’t choose to make middle earth the way he did by pure random luck – it was a directed process, in which he included the things he liked about society in the good societies, and the things he didn’t like in the bad societies. Sure, some authors choose to write differently to this but most don’t. Whether it’s conscious or unconscious, it’s a political act. Reproducing existing society without criticism or change is just as political act as imagining Anarres critically.

    You say I don’t buy that “recreating” society as we see it now is intrinsically conservative or that making a different society is intrinsically radical – it depends entirely on the content of the story. But here you are denying the very definition of “conservative”. A “conservative” is someone who aims to preserve existing society against change. A “conservative act” is any act which does this. By definition, maintaining the status quo is conservative. There is another, mad, abortion-doctor-killing version of conservatism in America, but that’s not what Mieville is talking about – we’re talking about the British political tradition here. So, if you reproduce society whole and uncritically (in the University sense of “critical”, not in the Daily Mail sense) you’re being politically conservative. When you envision a society as it was 20 years ago, you’re engaging in a conservative fantasy. This doesn’t make the novel good or bad – this depends, as you say, on the content. The novel may still be radical depending on the content, but the political vision is conservative unless your writing project sets out to undermine the world it is set in (as, for example, Philip Pullman does).

    LOTR is not an intensely political work It may not be “intensely” political, but some of its messages are and we know that Tolkien intended to write a romantic defense of a society he thought was fading. This is romantic conservatism. As you say, the continued appeal of the novels is due to the positive properties you identify. But the continued appeal of the milieu he created – what Mieville calls elves ‘n dwarves ‘n rings – is not the result of that. It has been preserved frozen for 70 years by his successors because something about the milieu appeals. And it’s remarkable that the parts of the milieu that have been preserved are precisely not the dwarves and the elves but the racial essentialism, the pastoral revivalism, the gender roles, the whiteness of the protagonists, and the wars. You can claim that this is just because they’re cool, but I don’t think that’s it. I think it’s because as a conservative genre it appeals to conservative writers and conservative publicists, and it’s popular with readers because of its conservatism. And because most people are conservative – particularly in the British and American audience – it has been preserved in whole cloth.

    I also don’t think that Tolkien’s politics weakens the work. I think there are other polemical novels – Iron Council springs to mind! – which are weakened by the polemic but it’s not an article of faith for me that polemic = bad novel. I like Tolkien’s vision of a romantic past, and his admonition against technology in the form of the ring could easily mean something else. I hope that clarifies – I don’t think politics is essential to the books’ success, but to the genre’s success.

  7. noisms Avatar

    I don’t think there’s anything fatalistic at all about saying that the creation of a new society is a political act.

    That, right there, is what I call fatalism: The creation of a new society is a political act! I don’t accept that it necessarily is, because human beings, including writers, are blessed with the gifts of consciousness, imagination and self-criticism and can thereby discipline themselves not to make the creation of new societies political.

    By definition, maintaining the status quo is conservative.

    But this isn’t what a writer does when he creates a new society which is similar to our own. He may be attempting to undermine commonsense notions of what “society” is. He may be creating a fantastical analogue of our society in order to explore how human beings behave within that context. He may be trying, Swift-like, to point out flaws and hypocricies within our own society and culture. Story is everything.

    And it’s remarkable that the parts of the milieu that have been preserved are precisely not the dwarves and the elves but the racial essentialism, the pastoral revivalism, the gender roles, the whiteness of the protagonists, and the wars.

    That isn’t the high fantasy genre I know. Wars, I’ll grant you, but racial essentialism, pastoral revivalism, perpetuation of gender roles and whiteness are not UNCRITICALLY inserted into contemporary fantasy; if they do appear it is usually because the author wants to explore those ideas (usually with the understanding that they are negative) in a fantastical context.

    This is increasingly rare and to the fantasy genre’s detriment in my opinion; the fact that most modern fantasy does not discuss medieval gender roles, class roles and notions of race in a mature way is a great weakness. Instead most modern fantasy anachronistically and childishly tends to transplant modern day notions of gender and racial equality and meritocracy into superficially “medieval” settings. On the contrary to your point I’d argue that fantasy writers are far too keen on making their societies palatable to modern-day sensibilities and thus far weaker as explorations of human nature.

  8. noisms Avatar

    And now all my html tags have been deleted. Stupid wordpress. See above [Comment 3] for what I was trying to write.

  9. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    Fixed, I think…

  10. faustusnotes Avatar
    faustusnotes

    I’ll wrap your first 2 comments together: obviously creating our society as it now stands, in order to criticise it, is not a conservative act. But this is because it requires a conscious act of criticism, which in general is not a conservative act.

    For the last comment: I’ve got a whole list of books up there which follow these rules (pastoralism etc.) uncritically. Where are yours? The only critical analysis of race I can remember in a modern sci-fi comes from Mieville or Paul Park. And again I think you’re confusing the transplantation of a few powerful women in some modern novels as some kind of sign that the author is reconsidering gender equality – but usually they aren’t, the female characters being the exception that proves the rule and usually being shown up as weak or trivial at some point in the story. Most women in modern fantasy fail under any deeper analysis than “there’s a tough chick so it must be feminist”. (see that review of Robert Jordan to as an example).

    I’ll grant you though that a lot of these efforts at world creation are just incompetent Tolkien knock-offs, and that’s a reasonable alternative explanation for conservatism; but George Bush certainly proved that the two are not mutually exclusive.

  11. Tarquin Avatar
    Tarquin

    what is the right kind of escapism?
    is the question that seems to be appearing here..
    for tolkien its relief from modernity, by presenting a christian and rural middle england
    For Mieville tolkien isn’t ‘escapist enough’ as influences of society and culture cannot be shaken when constructing fantastic texts…so what is the right kind of escapism??

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